• Welcome to OGBoards 10.0, keep in mind that we will be making LOTS of changes to smooth out the experience here and make it as close as possible functionally to the old software, but feel free to drop suggestions or requests in the Tech Support subforum!

I'd Rather See New Coordinators

DC, it's hard to have a legitimate argument with you when you pull stuff like this:

Me: "Nobody knew there were three long time NFL players coming back on Caldwell's last team."
You: "So you personally are aware that Jim Grobe didn't know anything about the level of talent he was getting when he arrived"

DC, I'm not sure how you can be all pro-Grobe but think in 13 years he hasn't made the job more attractive than when he started. I've been a major critic of Grobe for years and I think he definitely has made the job more attractive. Even if he personally can't win a championship at Wake anymore, he's shown it's possible. He has established a good blueprint for success. Somebody has to just improve on it and bring in the right staff and improve recruiting.
 
DCDeac said:
Ah. So you personally are aware that Jim Grobe didn't know anything about the level of talent he was getting when he arrived, despite 19 starters returning as the most experienced group in the ACC and multiple quotes from him about his belief they'd be competitive early?

How many starters do we return next year?

The only real argument that we're "much better off now" than when Grobe inherited an experienced team one year removed from a bowl game win is the stadium and facilities. But if you look at the recent attendance and Wellman's problems I don't know how reaffirming that is. Not to mention Grobe had never made a bowl game prior to coaching at Wake, so it's not like we went out and hired a proven championship coach. Wellman just made a smart hire that fit Wake Forest.
Click to expand...

Isn't that all anybody is asking for now? I mean, its not like people are seriously thinking we are going to chase James Franklin or Art Briles. Most suggestions I have heard include coordinators, Pete Lembo, or Danny Rocco.
 
DCDeac said:
Love how you say that but you have repeatedly said Grobe was lucky to inherit a great class from Caldwell to explain away the Seattle bowl appearance.

Which is it? Did Grobe ride Caldwell's great recruits to that bowl game and back-to-back winning seasons or were we "much less attractive" than now? Or do you think prospective coaches simply look at the win loss record the year they're taking over and consider absolutely nothing else? This is just about as ridiculous as saying [Redacted] inherited a winning NCAA tournament team his first year.
Click to expand...

PhDeac said:
Caldwell's players were more attractive looking back than anybody knew at the time. Those two arguments are distinct from each other.

Nobody knew there were three long time NFL players coming back on Caldwell's last team. Now that we know that, we can more accurately assess why Grobe was successful out of the box.

Again, make an all-Grobe offensive two deep chart and see how many players were Caldwell recruits. A lot. Calhoun's offense worked fairly well with Caldwell's players. Lobo's offense has failed with Grobe's players.
Click to expand...

I don't want to get into the middle of this, but I distinctly recall Grobe saying that he knew the cuboid was not bear when he arrived, but after that first year, it was going to be difficult for several years.
 
PhDeac said:
DC, it's hard to have a legitimate argument with you when you pull stuff like this:

Me: "Nobody knew there were three long time NFL players coming back on Caldwell's last team."
You: "So you personally are aware that Jim Grobe didn't know anything about the level of talent he was getting when he arrived"

DC, I'm not sure how you can be all pro-Grobe but think in 13 years he hasn't made the job more attractive than when he started. I've been a major critic of Grobe for years and I think he definitely has made the job more attractive. Even if he personally can't win a championship at Wake anymore, he's shown it's possible. He has established a good blueprint for success. Somebody has to just improve on it and bring in the right staff and improve recruiting.
Click to expand...

You are hilarious. You spend entire threads talking about Grobe's system not working - that he got lucky with the Fresh Deacs and inherited great players from Caldwell that explain his successful years.

But now that you are in year however many in a row of calling for his firing or at the bare minimum criticizing his everyday coaching ad nauseum, suddenly he's the guy with the blueprint that proved how you succeed at Wake Forest?

I can't wait until the coach who replaces [Redacted] has a losing season in year 4 and you start talking about how [Redacted]'s great recruiting and his solid foundation building were the cause of any early success he had, and how PhDeac knew it all along.
 
DC, stop being dense. I've explained my perspective on this dozens of times.

Good:
Redshirting
Defense first mentality
Over recruiting defensive players
Giving scholarships to specialists

Bad:
Offensive gameplanning and play calling
Offensive player development
Poor time management and field management
Declining recruiting making it more difficult to accomplish the Good

Grobe did good things that worked well for us that other coaches hadn't done. Grobe showed success is possible. I want a coach who can improve on what Grobe did right. Go back to the good. Correct the bad.

Stop prolonging arguments just to do it. I know you think you earn points by bullying ole Ph around. Stop trying to impress people.
 
Last edited:
mebanedeac said:
I don't think that is a fair assessment. He was thrown into a fiasco against the #2 team in the nation down 35 (?). He wasn't allowed to run the ball. That is one of his strengths, apparently. He showed a stronger arm than I expected. I think he should start against Duke.
Click to expand...

THANK YOU. Exactly my thought. Yes he threw interceptions, but watching the film of him versus Tanner, I think he is quicker, has better arm strength, and seems to care more. Knowing Grobe though he will play Tanner to lose out just because...
 
Ugh. You're unbearable as usual. You are the one prolonging arguments to avoid any semblance of even the idea that you don't know absolutely everything and are correct in every aspect.

You said we were in far worse shape in 2000. We weren't. We had a huge number of returning starters and won a bowl game the prior year. Caldwell's recruits might not have been labeled future NFL players, but they were well thought of and Grobe knew it. He talked about it. He said we had talent to win early. We're losing the majority of our skill players this year and have the worst incoming class in the ACC.

The realities of coaching football at the smallest BCS school in the country haven't changed. The stadium and facilities are better - although they still trail the majority of the programs against whom we hope to compete. That's the main reason the job might be more palatable. But if we fire Jim Grobe - the guy who won an ACC Championship for Wake Forest and is hugely respected as being an excellent coach across the country - there are going to be plenty of coaches who will want no part of following in those footprints if more ACC titles are the expectation.

And I love that recruiting isn't in your bad list. You spent pages and pages listing QB's and other players proving recruiting was a huge failure of Grobe recently. Now it's "player development" even though you list "redshirting" as Good. What do you think happens when redshirting is proven successful? Apparently NOT player development. Just like Riley was simply a gifted winner we didn't develop but that Tanner is proof we can't develop kids on offense. Camp is just gifted, Ragland is proof we can't develop offensive players...

It's a fascinating list Ph. Really. Keep it up. I look forward to future entries like "Strength: Identifying potential in recruits. Weakness: Inability to help recruits reach their potential."

In an alternate universe, instead of going through all these mental gymnastics, you could just say "Oh, I forgot how many returning seniors Grobe inherited and that he was high on the recruits as well, and that as Wake goes it wasn't a bad time to take over." But go on blaming me for being argumentative if you need to.
 
ironwill24 said:
THANK YOU. Exactly my thought. Yes he threw interceptions, but watching the film of him versus Tanner, I think he is quicker, has better arm strength, and seems to care more. Knowing Grobe though he will play Tanner to lose out just because...
Click to expand...

It will be real interesting to see who starts against Duke. Grobe was quoted in the Winston-Salem Journal as saying "ultimately" it would be the decision of QB coach, Tom Elrod.

I also agree, it's pretty unfair to judge Cameron in the limited action we've seen him this year. He played against Presby, but was just handing the ball off since Grobe refuses to allow his backup QB's to actually run the offense during mop up time when we're way ahead. Let me say, I don't like rubbing an opponent's face in it either, but I also see nothing wrong with trying to get your backups some real experience either. The other opportunities he's had this year has been when we were getting steamrolled by Clemson and FSU, so I'd like to see him when he gets the first team reps all week and against a non top 10 opponent before making any real judgements.
 
Last edited:
I'm real curious the extent to which next year plays a role. Do they want to give Cameron reps or let the more experienced QB try to get us to a bowl or do they think our best chance at a bowl is a guy who has never started a game?

Good thing there is a bye week to sort out those questions.
 
DCDeac said:
Ugh. You're unbearable as usual. You are the one prolonging arguments to avoid any semblance of even the idea that you don't know absolutely everything and are correct in every aspect.

You said we were in far worse shape in 2000. We weren't. We had a huge number of returning starters and won a bowl game the prior year. Caldwell's recruits might not have been labeled future NFL players, but they were well thought of and Grobe knew it. He talked about it. He said we had talent to win early. We're losing the majority of our skill players this year and have the worst incoming class in the ACC.

The realities of coaching football at the smallest BCS school in the country haven't changed. The stadium and facilities are better - although they still trail the majority of the programs against whom we hope to compete. That's the main reason the job might be more palatable. But if we fire Jim Grobe - the guy who won an ACC Championship for Wake Forest and is hugely respected as being an excellent coach across the country - there are going to be plenty of coaches who will want no part of following in those footprints if more ACC titles are the expectation.

And I love that recruiting isn't in your bad list. You spent pages and pages listing QB's and other players proving recruiting was a huge failure of Grobe recently. Now it's "player development" even though you list "redshirting" as Good. What do you think happens when redshirting is proven successful? Apparently NOT player development. Just like Riley was simply a gifted winner we didn't develop but that Tanner is proof we can't develop kids on offense. Camp is just gifted, Ragland is proof we can't develop offensive players...

It's a fascinating list Ph. Really. Keep it up. I look forward to future entries like "Strength: Identifying potential in recruits. Weakness: Inability to help recruits reach their potential."

In an alternate universe, instead of going through all these mental gymnastics, you could just say "Oh, I forgot how many returning seniors Grobe inherited and that he was high on the recruits as well, and that as Wake goes it wasn't a bad time to take over." But go on blaming me for being argumentative if you need to.
Click to expand...

I mention "declining recruiting" in the bad list.

You're a smart guy. Your posts on the politics board indicate that. You seem to start foaming at the mouth and losing all reason when you get into these argument with me. You miss basic details and miss simple logic like a plan being good and the execution of it declining over time. Redshirting? Good. It worked well through the Fresh Deacs class. It hasn't worked as well since because we recruited more players who didn't have the raw talent to develop over time and I think our coaching staff just wasn't as good. Clearly throwing true freshmen our there en masse isn't getting the job done this year.
 
PhDeac said:
DC, stop being dense. I've explained my perspective on this dozens of times.

Good:
Redshirting
Defense first mentality
Over recruiting defensive players
Giving scholarships to specialists

Bad:
Offensive gameplanning and play calling
Offensive player development
Poor time management and field management
Declining recruiting making it more difficult to accomplish the Good

Grobe did good things that worked well for us that other coaches hadn't done. Grobe showed success is possible. I want a coach who can improve on what Grobe did right. Go back to the good. Correct the bad.

Stop prolonging arguments just to do it. I know you think you earn points by bullying ole Ph around. Stop trying to impress people.
Click to expand...

Bad staff management
 
The program turned for the worse when the staff failed to capitalize on the 2006 to 2008 success when WF football had momentum and credibility as perhaps the best private school BCS program. At that time, WF was more successful than Stanford (yes, Stanford), Northwestern, Baylor and miles ahead of Vandy. WF won every recruiting battle with Vandy and even some with the biggest BCS schools. Then, a series of problems created catastrophic issues at the OL, and WF football has never recovered.

First was a series of recruiting misses at OL. Among them, WF was within a bee's dick of landing OG Jonathan Cooper (WF lost him to UNC at the very end - All American; 2013 1st round draft pick Arizona Cardinals), OC Khahil Wilkes (WF thought they had him; committed to Stanford on signing day; WF stopped recruiting in NJ after this; Wilkes is the starting center at Stanford); OT Robbie Havenstein (WF led until Wisconsin nabbed him at the end; RS junior is a 2 year starter at Wisconsin, and projects as a high NFL pick). Everyone knows about the James Wilson saga at Florida (Florida refused to allow him to transfer to WF). There have been other OL losses: Ben Freeman (son of a WF player) to Clemson; David Yankey OL from GA to Stanford; Shane Johnson to Pitt (2 year starter). WF was even involved with the Kouandjio brothers from MD that now start at Bama, and will be in the NFL next year. Had WF landed any combination of this group, the team's performance would have been materially different.

On top of the recruiting misses, WF has suffered a ton of injuries to the players it did land. The best OL that WF has recruited and landed over the last 5 years, Colin Summers is out for the year (possibly ever) with blood clotting problems. Dylan Heartsill's bad back ended his career. Antonio Ford broke his leg, and is still not 100%. Steven Chase tore his ACL. Devin Bolling was arrested and kicked out of school. As a result, the OL has been a mess for the last 4 years. During that time, WF has been young, inexperienced and not talented on the OL. A bad combination. Crappy OL play makes it impossible to run and to throw deep. So, WF runs the dink and dunk offense with little success.

WF will not fire Grobe, and I doubt that he will be forced to fire his assistants. With that I said, I sense Grobe is close to retiring. Not sure if it will happen after this year or next, but I will be shocked if he finishes out his contract (2016). Agree that Grobe made the job better than it was before he started, but the past 2 years have been hard on WF's rep. Recruiting will be the key. For the same reasons that Stanford, Baylor, NW and Vandy (and even Duke) have found recent success, WF can be a winning program, but the margin for error is minuscule. WF just has not been able to recover from the close recruiting misses and the injuries/attrition that WF has suffered on the OL.
 
Last edited:
Good informative post, Pilchard.
 
SDeacz said:
Dabo also coaches at a school with 40 times the alumni Wake has, 40 times the profit, at a school that's won a national championship, with a much easier academic standards. Comparing Dabo and Grobe is apples and oranges, especially when it comes to recruiting.

comparing Grobe to Franklin, Briles, or Cutcliffe is more accurate. And to date, none of them have won an conference championship. Though Baylor should this year.
Click to expand...

Blah, blah, blah.

You didn't address my point at all.

Dabo hires great coordinators and gets out of their way, just stepping in to close on recruits and energize the players. This model doesn't work with Grobe because he doesn't do any of those things particularly well. Grobe hasn't hired great coordinators; he certainly isn't energizing guys during game play like Dabo does (can't speak for behind closed doors..but the results speak for themselves in that regard), and he doesn't seem like a great recruiting type, not with all of his LOWF comments.

Agnostic of situation, Dabo is a better coach than Jim Grobe. Dabo has made changes when he needed to make changes. Grobe has not made those changes. Instead he's stood behind his coaches, regardless of what's best for his players or for the school paying him an obscene amount of money. Maybe he thinks Lobo is what's best, but that doesn't speak very well to his management abilities either.

I'm happy for you that you had a great experience in the football program and with Grobe. But, he hasn't been getting it done for the past 5 years.
 
Is there a way for me just to get an email alert whenever Pilchard posts and then I can not waste time reading everything else on here?
 
Bookmark his profile and you'll get a link to his most recent posts.
 
PhDeac said:
I'm real curious the extent to which next year plays a role. Do they want to give Cameron reps or let the more experienced QB try to get us to a bowl or do they think our best chance at a bowl is a guy who has never started a game?

Good thing there is a bye week to sort out those questions.
Click to expand...

I say let Tanner finish it out, unless he has packed it in already. We don't know what good Cameron got out of playing in the FSU game. Skinner didn't get the experience before he was thrown in there. What's important is that he gets something to build on for ULM next august.
 
Pritchard, don't forget Brennan Williams who pick the blue hat at the Army All-American game. Quinshad, Jela Duncan, Anthony Harrell etc.. the list goes on. But the lack of player developement is the biggest concern. If these top OL recruit had made it to W-S, would they have developed?
 
WF has had plenty of players "develop". In the 2012 draft, WF had the same number of players drafted (4; Joe Looney, Josh Bush, Chris Givens, Kyle Wilber) as Florida State. None of those players were considered great prospects in high school. Talented players (e.g., Campanaro, Whitlock) have excelled at W. WF just has not landed as many talented players in its most recent recruiting classes (particularly at OL).
 
That missed chip shot field goal at Clemson in 2011 KILLED OUR FOOTBALL PROGRAM.

PhDeac said:
DC, it's hard to have a legitimate argument with you when you pull stuff like this:

Me: "Nobody knew there were three long time NFL players coming back on Caldwell's last team."
You: "So you personally are aware that Jim Grobe didn't know anything about the level of talent he was getting when he arrived"

DC, I'm not sure how you can be all pro-Grobe but think in 13 years he hasn't made the job more attractive than when he started. I've been a major critic of Grobe for years and I think he definitely has made the job more attractive. Even if he personally can't win a championship at Wake anymore, he's shown it's possible. He has established a good blueprint for success. Somebody has to just improve on it and bring in the right staff and improve recruiting.
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top