It's happening before my very eyes...

[deacvision7]

I have asked this a thousand times, but where is the evidence of this? Kicking players off the team after they have been arrested stealing stuff and getting DUIs and such is not intentionally deconstructing a team. Those guys would have been gone under Bzzz, Dino or any coach.

Except...

Tony Woods was asked back onto the team. He decided to leave.
Same for JT.


Then there is Ty Walker...


You have a point with Tabb, though.

 

[ChrisL68]

Except...

Tony Woods was asked back onto the team. He decided to leave.
Same for JT.


Then there is Ty Walker...


You have a point with Tabb, though.

The whole argument is such total BS and doesn't jibe with the facts at all.

 

[IrishSlim]

It depends on what you mean. I doubt Bz was brought in with the intention of completely rebuilding like we did, but there had to have been issues that needed to be fixed, otherwise a coaching change would not have occurred.

My take has been some real program problems existed, but a lot of Wellman's "problems" were related to Dino's style, not the type of off-court problems as most here define them. So Wellman thought "cleaning" up the program meant replacing Dino and that would take care of his "problems". The new coach would coach up the players and recruits back towards Wake standards, the recruits being the primary reason Dino had to be let go so suddenly. In other words, the Brad Stephens strategy itself would fix everything. Replacing Dino was the "tweak" Wellman talked about at the time. That doesn't mean having perfect players just not near as problematic in Wellman's eyes.

Bz however ended up completely rebuilding the program for whatever reason and Wellman had no choice but to go along with it....hoping for the best. Bz struggled with Ws and PR, but at least Wellman didn't have to deal with Dino, and that's probably the source of comments like "oh heavens yes". Something pretty serious happened between Dino and Wellman and whatever it was, wasn't good.......donor's wife perhaps?

Pourdeac molests collies perhaps?

But by all means, what this thread needs more of is vague allusions and accusations that reveal more about the gossip-peddler than it does about the person being gossiped about.

 

['15 Deac]

That's because all you young guys are interested in is winning. You don't care how far you have to bend over to do it. I realize that all the haughty bluebloods that populate WF these days are used to having everything they want in life, but you can't be a snobby, elitist academic institution and recruit a bunch of James Johnsons to play basketball at the same time. How far did they have to torch their academic standards to get him in school, anyway? I remember that it wasn't easy. Once you start bending your rules and sacrificing your standards, though, you will do it again.....and it gets easier & easier each time you do it. That's where we were going with Dino....until the BOT and others decided that this wasn't the direction they wanted their alma mater to go. Anyone with any common sense or deductive prowess at all understands that, with a 61-31 record, Dino wasn't fired because he wasn't winning enough basketball games. I don't see why that is so hard for these WF whiz kids to understand.

1. We get it, you're old and care about character or whatever. You're like Calvin's dad in Calvin and Hobbes. Guys, having really shitty teams that go against the historical capabilities of this program builds character!

2. Winning is the point. No, but really, that's the point of competition and sports. Did you play any sports as a kid? I don't really think this is a matter of opinion, it's pretty objective. The athletic department serves the purpose of bringing in revenue and representing the University well. Losing does neither of these. Every single basketball player could be a Rhodes scholar, but if they don't win any games then it doesn't represent the University well as a basketball team. If you aren't trying to win, then you may as well just scrap the program and use the scholarships to give to other kids who can't pay for college as academic scholarships.

3. Wanting to win doesn't mean we want it at all costs. Winning and good character players aren't mutually exclusive. That's the main shortcoming of the culture campaign. But the key to getting both is the coach. Which is exactly why [Redacted] is absolutely the wrong guy for the job. Character players are built, not found and recruited. That's why Skip was so successful on both counts, even with guys like Josh Howard or other talented, athletes who apparently were bad culture. Honestly, 95% of all high school guys entering college are just shit heads. Put them in a new environment with huge amounts of freedom, alcohol, and girls, and they're going to do stupid things and screw up. That's why if you have a coach and mentor, like Skip was, they don't screw up.

4. Wake is not the alma mater of everyone on the BOT. Not important but it bothered me.

I don't know which team you're watching but in the past few games I've seen nothing but a group of smart, tough-nosed, athletic and excited young men (a majority of sophomores, one senior and one grad student) playing their tails off and successfully running complex sets and secondary fast breaks that we haven't seen at the Joel in years.

The student section on the lower level at the ND game was filled to capacity and by the 10 minute mark in the first half there were four rows of students in the balcony section, which we haven't seen since 2006. The culture narrative is quickly becoming icing on the cake for RW. Not only did WF bring in an entire class of high character recruits and invest a season in their development; now those same recruits are beginning to play together and win. Will they become an overnight sensation? No. But the progress since last year is more than evident and it's happening without the NCAA or the W-S PD sniffing around.

1. If you put 7-8 friends of mine on a basketball team that practiced throughout the entire year, we could run complex sets and secondary fast breaks with zero coaching.

2. Every comment about the student sections being full, etc. should carry the disclaimer that the student section is now at least 2 full sections, maybe 3, smaller than it was previously. Also, Yes, we have seen that since 2006. A lot. We even saw it last year at the State and Miami games. And we saw an actually full, legit size student section at both the Carolina and Duke games in 2009, along with many others. Stop trying to use the students as proof that Buzz is getting better and support is there. The students on campus are dumb and don't understand Wake Forest basketball for the most part. They are ignorant to the history and what was going on and how this entire situation came about. Most students don't know Wake Forest basketball before [Redacted], so they just don't get it. Yeah they'll show up for a game because it's more exciting than it was the past three years and it's something to do on a Saturday.

This current team of hustling scrappers who do things the right way have their own dirty laundry, and plenty of it. (Supposedly.) Just hasn't gotten out because a surreptitious smear campaign isn't being run against [Redacted] like it was with Dino in the months after he got fired.

LOL, some of you Buzz apologists make out the current players as a bunch of choir boys. Believe me, they aren't.

Yeah, this is all true. Maybe these guys are going to class more and there haven't been any violent crimes or thefts etc. (which all happened while Buzz was here with the players he inherited, just to note), but I know people that smoke weed with Devin, Rountree, and others on a regular basis. Very regular. And no this isn't another unfounded bullshit rumor.

 

[marquis moon]

You owe this team your unwavering support until the end of the season. Then, AND ONLY THEN, Buzz is fair game.

Until then, shut your FUCKING YAPS, fill THE JOEL, and pull for these guys with EVERYTHING you've got!!!!!!

 

[deacvision7]

You owe this team your unwavering support until the end of the season. Then, AND ONLY THEN, Buzz is fair game.

Until then, shut your FUCKING YAPS, fill THE JOEL, and pull for these guys with EVERYTHING you've got!!!!!!

No.

 

[pourdeac]

I have asked this a thousand times, but where is the evidence of this?

Almost every Dino player and recruited player were gone pretty quickly, and I suspect recruiting targets changed. That's pretty powerful evidence isn't it? If not intentional, what to you call that...bad luck?

 

[Wakeforest22890]

Almost every Dino player and recruited player were gone pretty quickly, and I suspect recruiting targets changed. That's pretty powerful evidence isn't it? If not intentional, what to you call that...bad luck?

Cj and Travis were here four years. Ari left as well as JTT. Tabb got in trouble and left while tony and Carson transferred in good academic standing.

 

[ChrisL68]

Almost every Dino player and recruited player were gone pretty quickly, and I suspect recruiting targets changed. That's pretty powerful evidence isn't it? If not intentional, what to you call that...bad luck?

Tabb got busted stealing stuff.
Woods got arrested for assault.
Terrell got a DUI.
Walker was busted with Woods and was allowed to stay until the last week of his college career.

Are people really saying that Derossiers and Chenault (sp?) are examples of the kinds of bad seeds we don't want? Really??????

That leaves Stewart, the one example of a player who could have possibly been shown the door before something blew up at Wake.

 

[Wakeforest22890]

Tony and Ty were skips recruits

 

[deacvision7]

In any event, I do not share your thinking here. I don't feel the need to win that badly.

Maybe you should give up watching all competitive sports then, slick.

Perhaps you should take up sewing or tiddlywinks instead?

 

[KVegasDeac]

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I've never once said that anyone had to agree with my opinion about all of this. It's just that I spent many years watching a coach win championships & graduate players without all of this other stuff, so I guess I became spoiled, in that I saw you could "win the right way" wthout compromising your standards. Maybe you can't do that today. If so, that's a sad commentary on the state of college athletics today.

In any event, I do not share your thinking here. I don't feel the need to win that badly.

I don't want to burst your bubble and cause you to stroke out or anything like that- but Carl Tacy did not have a team full of choir boys. They were probably very nice and polite to your face, displayed good manners, smiled, and made small talk and all of the things us old haughty people LOVE to refer to when we are talking about student athletes being "so nice" and "such a great guy!"- but I can promise you that they partied like rock stars, cursed like sailors, received lots of lovin' from the ladies (Muggsy was the father of Forsyth County), and did things that would make snobby old white guy's toes curl.

I KNOW for a fact that one of the players you love to reference got a DUI and WFU got him out of it - and it was all very hush-hush(this actually happened a lot).

Does this bother me? Not at all. They were/are college kids...stuff is going to happen.

I get bothered by the large percentage of holier-than-thou snobs who look down their noses at other basketball programs and proclaim "why, this NEVER happens at Mother So Dear" when it most certainly does...if they would just look past the ends of their Gucci loafers and perfectly sculpted noses and see the real world of college sports, they would realize Wellman's empire is all smoke and mirrors.

ETA: I am not as old as you, nor do I claim to be best friends with Carl Tacy (I respect the hell out of him and think he was a fine representative of WFU and that he was treated poorly in the end), but I have been close to the WFU basketball program my entire life. I have gotten to know a lot of players and their families. My job allows me to remain in contact with a lot of them...and I know that these kids were not perfect. They were college kids. They made mistakes...and WFU didn't throw them under the bus in order to prove a point.

 

[deacvision7]

Alcohol and sex out of wedlock!??!?

OH FUCK NO. NOT AT MY SCHOOL!

 

[Deadbolt]

Tony and Ty were skips recruits

Ahhhh, and there's the rub. How many of those awful, awful delinquents were Skip's guys? Kinda flies in the face of the Dino was recruiting bad people narrative, doesn't it?

Everyone needs to relax though...things will come right back to earth when we play Duke or get thrashed in the opening ACC tourney round. That is unless middle of the ACC in year four is what is acceptable as long as the athletes are eating their salads with the right fork (or just skipping out on steak dinners like their fearless leader).

 

[deacz]

Regarding the reasons for Dino's dismissal, whatever: (a) the truth, or; (b) what people want to believe, there remains absolutely no sound reason whatsoever to justify the hiring of Jeff [Redacted]. None, nada.

All of this debate misses the biggest point of all, which is the complete, utter, and unmitigated Bzaster.

 

[wakedeac98]

This week we debate culture because Wake won twice.

Wake will likely drop 3 of the next 4 then we'll be back to statistical based reasons why we need a new coach.

45 more days until the [Redacted] Error comes to a close and we end the same circular conversations we've had over and over for the past 3+ years.

 

[DeaconBrews]

I don't want to burst your bubble and cause you to stroke out or anything like that- but Carl Tacy did not have a team full of choir boys. They were probably very nice and polite to your face, displayed good manners, smiled, and made small talk and all of the things us old haughty people LOVE to refer to when we are talking about student athletes being "so nice" and "such a great guy!"- but I can promise you that they partied like rock stars, cursed like sailors, received lots of lovin' from the ladies (Muggsy was the father of Forsyth County), and did things that would make snobby old white guy's toes curl.

I KNOW for a fact that one of the players you love to reference got a DUI and WFU got him out of it - and it was all very hush-hush(this actually happened a lot).

Does this bother me? Not at all. They were/are college kids...stuff is going to happen.

I get bothered by the large percentage of holier-than-thou snobs who look down their noses at other basketball programs and proclaim "why, this NEVER happens at Mother So Dear" when it most certainly does...if they would just look past the ends of their Gucci loafers and perfectly sculpted noses and see the real world of college sports, they would realize Wellman's empire is all smoke and mirrors.

ETA: I am not as old as you, nor do I claim to be best friends with Carl Tacy (I respect the hell out of him and think he was a fine representative of WFU and that he was treated poorly in the end), but I have been close to the WFU basketball program my entire life. I have gotten to know a lot of players and their families. My job allows me to remain in contact with a lot of them...and I know that these kids were not perfect. They were college kids. They made mistakes...and WFU didn't throw them under the bus in order to prove a point.

:bowrofl:

 

[IrishSlim]

Judging from your comments in responses to my posts, I get the feeling that you know very little about me...if you think I'm part of the "blue-blooded, Gucci snob" set...nor do you have a very good understanding of what I have been trying to say about my objections to what was going on before [Redacted] got here. I think that numbers understands me very well. You should probably talk to him. I'm not opposed to players smoking grass, and I don't have any problem with one DUI....I've never gotten one, but I have to admit that there were times when I could have. I think that's probably true of most people. Those aren't the things that concerned me.

This post uses the words "I" or "me" 16 times.

 

[DeaconBrews]

Judging from your comments in responses to my posts, I get the feeling that you know very little about me...if you think I'm part of the "blue-blooded, Gucci snob" set...nor do you have a very good understanding of what I have been trying to say about my objections to what was going on before [Redacted] got here. I think that numbers understands me very well. You should probably talk to him. I'm not opposed to players smoking grass, and I don't have any problem with one DUI....I've never gotten one, but I have to admit that there were times when I could have. I think that's probably true of most people. Those aren't the things that concerned me.

just blowjobs

 

[KVegasDeac]

Judging from your comments in responses to my posts, I get the feeling that you know very little about me...if you think I'm part of the "blue-blooded, Gucci snob" set...nor do you have a very good understanding of what I have been trying to say about my objections to what was going on before [Redacted] got here. I think that numbers understands me very well. You should probably talk to him. I'm not opposed to players smoking grass, and I don't have any problem with one DUI....I've never gotten one, but I have to admit that there were times when I could have. I think that's probably true of most people. Those aren't the things that concerned me.

So what bothers you about Dino and Skip's players?