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Kill the Death Penalty

Does the death penalty deter capital crime?

I won't speak to the scholarly literature, because I'm not up on it since law school. If nothing else, however, the death penalty deters the capital criminal from committing another capital crime. And unlike life without parole, he can't kill other inmates and correction officers either.

Moreover, I think execution by guillotine in the public square would have more of a deterrent effect on the general populous than the way we currently perform executions. It seems barbaric, and maybe it is, but I think watching a few heads roll and knowing that could be you up there pissing your pants in front of everyone would have a strong psychological impact.
 
What is your opinion on judge override in Alabama?

I don't know much about it, but I don't see how it's permissible under Ring v. Arizona. Ring was only decided in 2002, so maybe it is just taking time for the issue to come before the SCOTUS?

In any event, I think it is a terrible idea for policy reasons. The jury system may not be perfect, but I'd much rather have a jury decide my fate than an elected judge who has to maintain a tough on crime position to stay in office.
 
I have BKF on ignore due to general idiocy. I made the mistake of reading his last post. Bob, most of the people who post on The Tunnels are not students. Many of us have professional degrees and many years of successful careers, often in fields that are significantly more related to the discussion at hand than your career of selling insurance and annuities. If you're going to post drivel, go ahead and post it and I will continue to ignore it, but save the condescension.
 
I have BKF on ignore due to general idiocy. I made the mistake of reading his last post. Bob, most of the people who post on The Tunnels are not students. Many of us have professional degrees and many years of successful careers, often in fields that are significantly more related to the discussion at hand than your career of selling insurance and annuities. If you're going to post drivel, go ahead and post it and I will continue to ignore it, but save the condescension.

does not compute
 
internet_troll.png
 
Does the death penalty deter capital crime?

oh wow I bet that is just a question you are hoping to get the answer to and not one you already know the answer to. Man you're good.
 
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There isn't a good argument. If there was, they would be making it.

Instead, they play on the vengeance angle to try to tug on the heart strings of those opposed. The gov't has no business getting involved in the business of vengeance. Provide us with a SINGLE major benefit of the death penalty to society that outweighs the gov't putting innocent people to death.
 
There are four common theoretical bases for criminal punishment recognized by scholars: Retribution, incapacitation, deterrence, and rehabilitation. Of these, the only one that could not be served by the death penalty is rehabilitation.

Retribution – this one is obvious, but there is more going on than just a simple knee-jerk thirst for blood. One of the notions that underlies "an eye for an eye" is that it is right and just to punish a wrong with the same harm inflicted on the perpetrator. So, at its best, retribution is not a personal act of vengeance for some sort of self-satisfaction so much as it is the consequence of a moral theory of equivalence (or something like it).

Incapacitation – obviously, a person who is executed is not going to be able to kill again. The same cannot be said for a person who is spending life in prison. The latter person can kill other prisoners, correctional officers, and, if they are paroled, other civilians.

Deterrence – as I remember the scholarly literature from when I was in law school, it was relatively well accepted that the death penalty, as it is currently carried out, does not deter others from committing capital crimes. However, as I have expressed on this thread, I think there is a way that the death penalty could be carried out (guillotine in the public square) so that it would have a deterrent effect.

There are, obviously, counter arguments to each of these points from both a theoretical and a procedural point of view, the most compelling of which to me is that under any regime that permits the death penalty innocent people may be killed. That is undoubtedly true, but remember that we run the risk under a non-death penalty regime that an innocent person could spend the rest of his life in prison, and, as many have said on this board, life in prison is arguably a worse punishment than death. I don't think the answer is to forgo punishment, even the death penalty, but rather to take steps to attempt to ensure that that punishment is inflicted only upon the deserving. This the law does through procedural mechanisms such as the requirement for a jury, the requirement of a finding of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, the wholesale prohibition of the death penalty on certain categories of people (like the mentally handicapped and juveniles), the requirement for individualized findings on aggravating – mitigating factors, rights of appeal and habeas corpus, and a whole host of other procedural safeguards, not to mention executive clemency.

Anyway, that is far from a complete case, but it is a rough outline showing that the justification for the death penalty is far more than wanting to kill the guy who killed your wife, son, daughter, etc.
 
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I won't speak to the scholarly literature, because I'm not up on it since law school. If nothing else, however, the death penalty deters the capital criminal from committing another capital crime. And unlike life without parole, he can't kill other inmates and correction officers either.

Moreover, I think execution by guillotine in the public square would have more of a deterrent effect on the general populous than the way we currently perform executions. It seems barbaric, and maybe it is, but I think watching a few heads roll and knowing that could be you up there pissing your pants in front of everyone would have a strong psychological impact.

If we have this punishment, it should be public. Justice must be seen to be done. Either it is legal or it isn't.
 
There are four common theoretical bases for criminal punishment recognized by scholars: Retribution, incapacitation, deterrence, and rehabilitation. Of these, the only one that could not be served by the death penalty is rehabilitation.

Retribution – this one is obvious, but there is more going on than just a simple knee-jerk thirst for blood. One of the notions that underlies "an eye for an eye" is that it is right and just to punish a wrong with the same harm inflicted on the perpetrator. So, at its best, retribution is not a personal act of vengeance for some sort of self-satisfaction so much as it is the consequence of a moral theory of equivalence (or something like it).

Incapacitation – obviously, a person who is executed is not going to be able to kill again. The same cannot be said for a person who is spending life in prison. The latter person can kill other prisoners, correctional officers, and, if they are paroled, other civilians.

Deterrence – as I remember the scholarly literature from when I was in law school, it was relatively well accepted that the death penalty, as it is currently carried out, does not deter others from committing capital crimes. However, as I have expressed on this thread, I think there is a way that the death penalty could be carried out (guillotine in the public square) so that it would have a deterrent effect.

There are, obviously, counter arguments to each of these points from both a theoretical and a procedural point of view, the most compelling of which to me is that under any regime that permits the death penalty innocent people may be killed. That is undoubtedly true, but remember that we run the risk under a non-death penalty regime that an innocent person could spend the rest of his life in prison, and, as many have said on this board, life in prison is arguably a worse punishment than death. I don't think the answer is to forgo punishment, even the death penalty, but rather to take steps to attempt to ensure that that punishment is inflicted only upon the deserving. This the law does through procedural mechanisms such as the requirement for a jury, the requirement of a finding of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, the wholesale prohibition of the death penalty on certain categories of people (like the mentally handicapped and juveniles), the requirement for individualized findings on aggravating – mitigating factors, rights of appeal and habeas corpus, and a whole host of other procedural safeguards, not to mention executive clemency.

Anyway, that is far from a complete case, but it is a rough outline showing that the justification for the death penalty is far more than wanting to kill the guy who killed your wife, son, daughter, etc.

Thanks for the response. I will respond more in depth sometime this weekend because I think there are some interesting points. I am genuinely interested in discussing this with you and others, even if my last few posts seem dismissive. BKF just really pissed me off with his "your daughter should be raped" bullshit and that made me a bit stand-offish.
 
The advocates for the death penalty focus entirely on the people they perceive as deserving, but I think that misses the mark. We are almost certainly putting to death innocent people. Possibly a lot of innocent people. Unless someone can point out to me a foolproof way to not kill innocent people, then then any argument for the death penalty just falls flat. To me, if you put to death 99 killers and one innocent, then it wasn't worth it.
 
I've responded to that concern by saying that the only time the death penalty should be used is if there is no possibility whatsoever that the person is not guilty of the crime, but the answer I got was, basically, that there is no way to prove a person is guilty...even if it was on videotape and 50 people saw him do it.

So we shouldn't use the death penalty.
 
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