Labor/Workers movements thread

[wakephan09]

I often consider pedantry to be dishonest. Responding to the question of “why are you concerned with x?” with “lots of people who follow the economy are concerned with x” isn’t an answer to the question, it’s a rhetorical condescending dismissal of my question. I don’t appreciate that, and you interpreted my lack of appreciation as my being a dick.

I've said this to you before, but answering your questions in good faith is not pedantry.

And your insistence on responding with disrespect and anger to absolutely everyone, whether or not they agree with you, says much more about you than anyone here. You are condescending, not most of the people here. "lack of appreciation"?

I answered your dismissive question with one possible answer (trying not to answer on behalf of Slim) to a complex question. There was nothing rhetorical and I wasn't making any argument.

 

[myDeaconmyhand]

what are you talking about?

It has nothing to do with resentment. It's about keeping the economy working by ensuring workers at all levels feel valued and that each worker is fairly compensated for their experience and tenure.

Also, why is "compression" in scare quotes? I didn't make this up; its basic economic stuff

The economy doesn’t require people feeling properly valued and compensated, and you are still ignoring the context of this debate, which is a veteran non-union employee being “concerned” about entry level employees at his firm being paid at a rate he considers too high. You need to differentiate between an employee being concerned with their own compensation vs being concerned with others compensation.

 

[Mt. Olive]

I often consider pedantry to be dishonest. Responding to the question of “why are you concerned with x?” with “lots of people who follow the economy are concerned with x” isn’t an answer to the question, it’s a rhetorical condescending dismissal of my question. I don’t appreciate that, and you interpreted my lack of appreciation as my being a dick.

You are a good dude but your responses come across as condescending.

 

[myDeaconmyhand]

I've said this to you before, but answering your questions in good faith is not pedantry.

Telling me that lots of people who follow the economy are concerned about salary compression is pedantry IMO, it’s certainly not an answer to “why”.

 

[BeachBumDeac]

The economy doesn’t require people feeling properly valued and compensated, and you are still ignoring the context of this debate, which is a veteran non-union employee being “concerned” about entry level employees at his firm being paid at a rate he considers too high. You need to differentiate between an employee being concerned with their own compensation vs being concerned with others compensation.

I mean I literally work on the committee that decides salary advancement for PTs and OTs in our health system and I can tell you it is a very real problem keeping experienced employees motivated to continue to develop their skills when entry level therapists are coming in and making close to their salary.

I agree with you that in a vacuum it SHOULDN’T matter that much if the senior therapist is already well compensated but, well, humans are humans and we are emotional and messy and irrational.

 

[myDeaconmyhand]

You are a good dude but your responses come across as condescending.

Why is it that defiance to browbeating is interpreted as condescension? Just because someone accuses me of using a strawman doesnt mean I have to submit to them. I am trying to defend myself.

 

[Mt. Olive]

The economy doesn’t require people feeling properly valued and compensated, and you are still ignoring the context of this debate, which is a veteran non-union employee being “concerned” about entry level employees at his firm being paid at a rate he considers too high. You need to differentiate between an employee being concerned with their own compensation vs being concerned with others compensation.

In real life the compensation of veteran employees versus new employees is a real issue.

 

[myDeaconmyhand]

I agree with you that in a vacuum it SHOULDN’T matter that much if the senior therapist is already well compensated but, well, humans are humans and we are emotional and messy and irrational.

I didn’t say it shouldn’t matter. People who don’t feel fairly compensated should try to increase their compensation - a great avenue for that is joining a labor union.

 

[BeachBumDeac]

I didn’t say it shouldn’t matter. People who don’t feel fairly compensated should try to increase their compensation - a great avenue for that is joining a labor union.

Agreed! I think pickle’s dad should not be bitching about the entry level employee salaries, he should be joining the union to help them shape a salary structure that both attracts a good workforce while rewarding quality experience.

 

[wakephan09]

The economy doesn’t require people feeling properly valued and compensated

I'm not an economist, but I feel like that's exactly what the economy requires?

Why is it that defiance to browbeating is interpreted as condescension? Just because someone accuses me of using a strawman doesnt mean I have to submit to them. I am trying to defend myself.

Lol, browbeating? You called me condescending and suggested that I begrudged (so-called) low-skilled workers their wage increases. you suggesting that I don't care about working people is actually kinda condescending

I only answered your question (why would Slim and his dad care about what entry-level workers make?); responded to next question (i.e. who exactly cares?) by clarifying that I think a lot of people care, across industries, experience, and time in the workforce. Then I pointed out that you'd mischaracterized my post, deliberately or not idk. (I'm not "accusing" you of a strawman; that is a strawman)

Nothing pedantic or condescending or "rhetorical" from me

 

[myDeaconmyhand]

I'm not an economist, but I feel like that's exactly what the economy requires?

your statement here fails to account for the coerciveness of economics. People work because they believe they have to, there’s absolutely zero requirement they feel properly valued. If the economy required it why would there be mountains of laws and statutes expressly preventing people who don’t feel properly valued from being able to do anything about it.

 

[wakephan09]

and just to clarify, again, because you keep putting "compression" in scare quotes as if it's not a problem worth discussing:

the solution to wage compression is not to offer less money to entry-level people. It's to offer raises to more senior workers.

 

[Shooshmoo]

How is it a problem besides sour grapes/resentment? In my field, salaries get better over time. It's just how it is. That's fine with me, though, because I was living in pretty significant poverty when I was getting paid peanuts and I generally like for humanity to thrive (rather than experience hardships that I experienced to make me feel better about myself). Pull up your big boy pants and realize that you live in a society.

+1 for repository.

 

[wakephan09]

your statement here fails to account for the coerciveness of economics. People work because they believe they have to, there’s absolutely zero requirement they feel properly valued.

I mean, sure, absolutely. My statement was not meant to be comprehensive, and I'm not talking theoretically about the economy

like BBD, I was on a salary adjustment committee this year and this stuff matters to real people, both low- and high-earners.

 

[Louis Gossett Jr]

What if, and believe me this is a hypothetical, but what if you were offered some kind of a stock option equity sharing program. Would that do anything for you?

 

[wakephan09]

If the economy required it why would there be mountains of laws and statutes expressly preventing people who don’t feel properly valued from being able to do anything about it.

You edited to add this after I responded

I don't know exactly how to reply to this because there are also plenty of policies in place to adjust salaries and protect workers' rights. (Not enough, of course)

 

[Shooshmoo]

It is incredibly strange and unorthodox for a union contract not to include seniority based pay scales. It's ok to acknowledge that it is atypical and that it might frustrate more senior workers, even if they're in the union.

 

[myDeaconmyhand]

and just to clarify, again, because you keep putting "compression" in scare quotes as if it's not a problem worth discussing:

I just don’t think it’s an honest reading to assign the feelings of veteran employees like pickles dad to “concern with wage compression”. That term is just a name for an event. I’m not referring to the event, but how it makes people feel and why. Pickles dad isn’t an economist concerned with economics, he is a non-union veteran employee resentful of the compensation that a union has won for entry level employees.

Multiple people here including yourself have convincingly described wage compression as being important - what makes it important is that veteran employees are often disincentivized when entry level employees wages rise to those veterans levels, and their wages don’t rise accordingly - they feel entitled to a higher wage, even if the market doesn’t bear it, and their responsibilities haven’t changed. That, to me, is resentment. It’s not a lack of fairness. Fairness in this context is completely subjective. The market or labor organization determined entry level wages rising. If those same mechanisms don’t also raise veteran wages, then it’s upon the veterans to represent themselves.

 

[wakephan09]

Like I said a couple of times above, I don't want to assign any feelings or interpretations to Slim or his dad because I don't know what they're thinking or why.

My bringing up salary compression was to answer what I understood from you to be a genuine question: "why might someone in that position feel that way?" I gave one possible answer, even if they wouldn't themselves characterize it in as many words.

I think you're doing a little bit of projection here: just because somebody wants their compensation to reflect their experience, skills, and tenure doesn't mean they are resentful. It's certainly possible, perhaps even probably based on what we've learned that that's the case here.

But if you're interested in the feelings (and their harmful implications for workers) rather than the phenomenon itself that's cool but I wish you'd just said that straightaway instead of being a dick and trying to argue. Why do you always accuse me of not being honest or arguing in good faith?

 

[wakephan09]

The market or labor organization determined entry level wages rising. If those same mechanisms don’t also raise veteran wages, then it’s upon the veterans to represent themselves.

Yes, I think that's exactly why committees exist like the ones BBD and I served on this year. The market can't always correct veteran wages (without people leaving) and companies want to retain their workers so they build mechanisms to do it