Latest from MTOW, 2 Much to Ask?

[Strickland33]

You do realize that Duke could have beat us by 35 to 40 points if they wanted to?

Sometimes I think the Buzz-in/Buzz-wait crowd doesn't even bother watching games. The abomination that was Wake Forest vs. Duke is only unclear is you were too lazy to turn on the television, listen to the radio, find a feed, or read a recap.

What's ironic is that all of these clowns spouting hate about K and Roy (which comes, at times, on both sides of the Buzz-? aisle) are actually playing into what these coaches want: [Redacted] to be retained because he'll never, ever challenge them on the court, on the recruiting trail, or for press. Not anywhere; not anytime.

So, if you found positives against Duke, then I'm happy for you. For the love of the lord, however, please don't point to an 18-point deficit as the reason for your positivity. If you're that LOWF - that you'd really rather support this dumpster fire, then what's best for the team and the program - then I think lots of folks should just trade in their OG&B for some baby blue.

 

[DeaconBrews]

Judging by those odds, you're not very certain I guess.

I'll let you know, if we only win 4 games.....because Bz will be evaluated on more than the W-L record. If we crater big time vs an unranked team like we did vs NCSU last year....bye bye. 6 Ws might not save him then, depending on who it is.

And I agree....it's sort of 180° from earlier in the year.

i'm just trying to make as much $ off you as you will allow. i trust my information.

 

[stevewhite14]

3-4 ACC wins and no blowouts to unranked teams will save his job. I think that would be considered better than last year......progress.

We will improve as a team over time given the situation. The problem at the end of the year is.....it'll be hard to tell if it's just because we have a very young team simply learning to play together or if it's because of Bz. We won't know that until we see improvement from there and that will be next year. So barring a complete collapse and embarrassment......expect a 4th year and I think Shelton means a 5th too even if we're below 0.500 next year.

Did you see Iona climb into the rankings?

 

[Southern Deac]

Here's something I don't understand --- for those who are BzIn they say to look at things beyond wins and losses as program growth, various types of moderately tangible program characteristics or levels of improvement....but the same crowd wants to criticize the BzOut crowd for citing personality and other non-performance reasons for not liking Bzz and wanting him canned.

If someone wants Bz gone purely b/c he has no personality, or some other character trait - I think that is a justifiable excuse even at the highest levels of the administration - he is the face of a revenue sport at a Power 5 conference school....Dino obviously got canned for something beyond wins and losses - why shoudl Bz get a different set of rules?

So the tone of "wait and see" really only applies to on-court performance --- almost everything else, including the things that makes up a coach's persona, has already been evaluated in 2.5 years time.

 

[w84it]

Reads very much like a "my editor says that I have to have something to write about today, despite the fact that there isn't anything worth writing about" piece.

 

[Azdeac]

You do realize that Duke could have beat us by 35 to 40 points if they wanted to?

I'm just saying we weren't as shitty as I have been accustomed to seeing out of Bzdick. I'm not saying it's acceptable, but I could see Ron Egomaniac Wellman finding that acceptable.

 

[Chill22]

Dear Dan.

Have we played enough hands to know that Lobo is in over his head as OC?

 

[Turd Ferguson]

Progress is good. Beating some bad teams, (and are next 4 games are against bad teams) is not enough progress to warrant keeping a job. Especially how low he has taken us to begin with.

Remember, if we've progressed at all (IF), it is only from historic lows we reached under Buzz. Real progress from where we were prior to Buzz means making it past the second round in the NCAA tourny and winning some ACC tournies. I know we know this, but let's be careful with the word progress. We HAVE NOT PROGRESSED, only sucked a little less than last year.

I heard a couple of guys talking at church on Sunday, and one said referring to the duke game "I thought we did pretty well. I honestly thought we'd get blown out."

This is the best description of rock bottom I can think of. Buzzout, Wellmanout, and now Danout!

 

[DirkTheDeac]

Dan obviously reads this board. I have a question. How many posters on here are actively pulling for Wake to lose ball games? I can think of one or two but for the most part we want to win games. We just happen to have come to the realization before Dan that it is unlikely to happen.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

Dan obviously reads this board. I have a question. How many posters on here are actively pulling for Wake to lose ball games? I can think of one or two but for the most part we want to win games. We just happen to have come to the realization before Dan that it is unlikely to happen.

Buzz absolutely sucks. Wellman is an asshole. And we showed "progress" while getting blasted by 18 at Duke. Questioning the sincerity of fans given the current dumpster fire is ridiculous. It's a goddamn sport and I reserve the right to like or not like coaches for whatever reasons I see fit. I actually would still dislike Buzzdick even if we won more, because he's an ass, but that's a scenario we don't really have to worry about.

ETA: BTW Dirk, I was referring to the article and not to you about "questioning fans' sincerity."

 

[88Deac]

My thoughts on Buzz at this point are that he is probably a decent coach, and I don't think he is nearly as bad as others on this board say he is based on his record here. I think the hand he was dealt was far worse than many want to believe. But decent coaches are easy to come by, and I don't see much upside with Buzz. I mean, on his best day, I think it is clear he is average. And he doesn't have the personality or leadership qualities to really make him stand out. I think the team has definitely played better the last 4-5 games and hope it continues. It I think we move on to the next coach after the season. But I do share the concern that RW will do what the Chargers brass did for years when Norv did "just enough" to save his job. has been clear for a while Norv was a good OC when he had Aikman, Irvin, Emmitt & co., but he is an average head coach at best. I will NEVER root against us or hope we lose for ANY reason, but barring some massive overachieving this year, I'm ready to try something else. I don't hate him or anything, I just think we can do much better. I think the worst we could do in a new hire is to get a coach on par with [Redacted]. The best we could do is get someone who pulls a Gottfried and starts landing everyone.

 

[DirkTheDeac]

The hand he was dealt was far worse than many want to believe? You have got to be kidding me.

 

[TBR]

I have no desire to read the article. I assume it's more pleads for patience. That had a lot of validity in year 1 or year 2, when a lot of us weren't being very patient, but the time for excuses is over. This is year 3. [Redacted] has had two recruiting classes. If he can't put together a winning season in year 3 then he isn't going to be a successful coach. I'm talking winning season here. Not a NCAA appearance. Not a NIT appearance. A winning season. That's a damn low bar, and he isn't going to hit it.

And I will hop in a plane, head for NC, and slap anyone who even thinks about mentioning Coach K or Tom Crean.

 

[TBDeac]

The hand he was dealt was far worse than many want to believe? You have got to be kidding me.

Bzz clearly sucks, but I don't think this is a ridiculous quote. The '10-'11 roster was awful (a lot more awful than anyone realized at the time). Asking for a sweet 16 by now, or comparing to the two years prior to that is probably not realistic. But that doesn't mean Bzz is still not a total failure. He clearly is.

 

[88Deac]

Agree with TBD. The '10-'11 roster has proven to be pretty bad. JT and Ari still suck and have not grown up. Apparently that isn't all Buzz's fault. I thought Buzz worked very hard on to help bring JT along. Tabb is Tabb. Ty is Ty. Carson was not particularly good. TC just isn't ACC caliber, and was hurt most of his freshman year leaving us really behind the 8 ball at PG. Gary Clark was a shooter and that's about it. CJ was an emerging soph and Travis was a good freshman, but not a world beater. And certainly no one can blame Buzz for Woods leaving before practice even started. Buzz got dealt a horrible hand. That team just was not good at all, period. But it still doesn't change the fact Buzz is an average at best coach. Wake should have much better than an average coach.

In my opinion even if we go 12-6 we still ought to go a different direction. We can do better than Buzz and it is time to move that direction. I think Battle would do a better job.

 

[bym051d]

Bzz clearly sucks, but I don't think this is a ridiculous quote. The '10-'11 roster was awful (a lot more awful than anyone realized at the time). Asking for a sweet 16 by now, or comparing to the two years prior to that is probably not realistic. But that doesn't mean Bzz is still not a total failure. He clearly is.

I don't disagree. I've said it before though, at our worst, there are teams we should always beat. Those teams have beaten us.

Wake Forest may not be UNC or Duke or Kentucky. But, we should never be the worst BCS school at basketball.

 

[freakadeac]

How long do fans need to be patient? Year 1? That's fine. Year 2? Eeh OK. Year 3?

 

[vtwhat etc]

Actually I lied. There is one more thing I'd like to say to those sad souls. Try floating your viewpoint to Shelton Mitchell, that you know better what's good for him than he does, and see what he says. Or try to convince Miller-McIntyre, who if he can play more games like the one he played against Xavier, will be an All-ACC player. Or try to convince Thomas, who had 14 rebounds against Xavier and 12 at Duke.
Or try to convince Randolph Childress. I've known Randolph Childress long enough to know how bad he hates to lose. If he didn't think there's a payoff down the road, he would not be back at Wake Forest.

Typically, even if I disagree with what Dan has to say, I find his stuff worthwhile.

This article is horrendous. Absolutely atrocious.

From a basketball perspective; the 'certain strides' he's notes from the Seton Hall to the Xavier game are completely speculative and look ridiculous when used in an argument to compare/contrast this season positively against '10-'11. Imagine how cheery his tone would be if we had a ~20-point comeback this year against the best team we've beaten in 3 years; individual games are meaningless when discussing long-term progress, outliers are going to exist in every large sample (except in the win column of [Redacted]'s record against the top-75). One such outlier would be the '10-'11 Iowa game, as alluded to in the first sentence of this paragraph.

Now, from a logic perspective... holy hell, this piece is an embarrassment for Dan Collins. Just in case anybody hadn't taken Dan's point to heart: the decision an athletic teenager makes about where to attend college relies entirely on the current direction of their chosen sport; certainly a student-athlete wouldn't consider anything about a school other than its head coach's potential. Academics, atmosphere, and reputation be damned! We, as lifelong fans, should all default to a high school junior to tell us what direction the athletic program is heading, and, most importantly... not question Ron Wellman's decision to retain Bz until after the season. Because the first season didn't count. Neither did the second. The Xavier game counts but Iona and Nebraska don't; Nebraska was on a Tuesday and Iona lied to us about what defense they were going to play.

Oh, and for those that made it to the end of this post:

 

[PhDeac]

At least people are realizing that Wellman and Dan Collins have no credibility.

 

[Ralph Medlin]

Dan Collins is not a hard journalist. This impotent column is his attempt to make amends for his surprisingly harsh post a few weeks ago. I'm sure he stayed up late in his trailer out in Clemmons worrying if he pissed Wellman and Bz off after the last one.

There is a reason he is at the Winston Salem Journal at 60. Peter principal.