Louisville Post Game Presser. Glorious Danny, Truly Glorious

[knowell]

In order to win, you have to keep players. Particularly at Wake Forest. We aren't going to be nor should we be a one-and-done factory. It wasn't sustainable for Georgetown. It won't be sustainable for Duke after K dies/retires. It only really works at State schools. I know Duke fans are having fun this year with Zion, but I do think they had way more fun when they are cheering on guys for two or three years - Grant Hill et al.

Regardless of whether Duke can sustain being a one-and-done factory and whether it is good for Duke's rep and college basketball, it shouldn't be done at Wake. Period. Therefore, a coach needs to follow the Brad Stevens, Jay Wright model of developing talent. Rotation guys for a year or two, starters for another year or two - 8 minutes, 13 minutes, 25 minutes+ trajectory. To develop talent, you need to have a system (we don't have one), a recruiting philosophy (don't have that either), and the players need to have fun (ours aren't). Fun happens when you win, and where there is a mentorship happening where guys know they are becoming better players and better people. We had that under Prosser in spades. We don't have that now. It was Bzd's downfall. Probably a pretty good Xs and Os coach - at least at the pro level - a miserable mentor - threw players under the bus and apparently a bit of a primadona (where's my ranch dressing). Manning, unfortunately, is neither a good Xs and Os coach nor is he a mentor. This is why guys leave. They aren't improving, aren't having fun, and are getting little to no mentorship/leadership.

Get him out today. Nestor/Childress the rest of the way. Probably need to put JGray on the bench to replace Manning and Manning.

Get Duncan and CP3 involved when approaching your first choice coach at the end of the year. I have retired the idea of Wellman stepping down and allowing his successor to hire the next coach. But maybe if CP3, Shah and Duncan are at least in the sales pitch and on board, our first choice could still happen.

This is a really good post.

 

[liveanddiedeac]

 

[OfficialA]

It’s really hard to get old when you’re dead.

 

[Biff Tannen]

In order to win, you have to keep players. Particularly at Wake Forest. We aren't going to be nor should we be a one-and-done factory. It wasn't sustainable for Georgetown. It won't be sustainable for Duke after K dies/retires. It only really works at State schools. I know Duke fans are having fun this year with Zion, but I do think they had way more fun when they are cheering on guys for two or three years - Grant Hill et al.

Regardless of whether Duke can sustain being a one-and-done factory and whether it is good for Duke's rep and college basketball, it shouldn't be done at Wake. Period. Therefore, a coach needs to follow the Brad Stevens, Jay Wright model of developing talent. Rotation guys for a year or two, starters for another year or two - 8 minutes, 13 minutes, 25 minutes+ trajectory. To develop talent, you need to have a system (we don't have one), a recruiting philosophy (don't have that either), and the players need to have fun (ours aren't). Fun happens when you win, and where there is a mentorship happening where guys know they are becoming better players and better people. We had that under Prosser in spades. We don't have that now. It was Bzd's downfall. Probably a pretty good Xs and Os coach - at least at the pro level - a miserable mentor - threw players under the bus and apparently a bit of a primadona (where's my ranch dressing). Manning, unfortunately, is neither a good Xs and Os coach nor is he a mentor. This is why guys leave. They aren't improving, aren't having fun, and are getting little to no mentorship/leadership.

Get him out today. Nestor/Childress the rest of the way. Probably need to put JGray on the bench to replace Manning and Manning.

Get Duncan and CP3 involved when approaching your first choice coach at the end of the year. I have retired the idea of Wellman stepping down and allowing his successor to hire the next coach. But maybe if CP3, Shah and Duncan are at least in the sales pitch and on board, our first choice could still happen.

This is great and all, but if you want to develop 3 and 4-year players into a really good ACC team, they have to be ACC caliber players to begin with, not Dick Wash and Melo Eggleston.

 

[OfficialA]

“Are you concerned, Danny?”
“To a certain extent.”

 

[OfficialA]

ANd you

This is great and all, but if you want to develop 3 and 4-year players into a really good ACC team, they have to be ACC caliber players to begin with, not Dick Wash and Melo Eggleston.

And you have to actually keep them 3 or 4 years. We’ve been getting 4 year players and keeping them a year.

 

[RaleighTriad]

“Are you concerned, Danny?”
“Not after my contract extension.”

I fixed it for you.

 

[DeacsATS]

This is great and all, but if you want to develop 3 and 4-year players into a really good ACC team, they have to be ACC caliber players to begin with, not Dick Wash and Melo Eggleston.

Sure, but every ACC team has players like that on the roster. After the top 150 or so, you get some recruits that work out and some that don't.

 

[jaybone]

This is great and all, but if you want to develop 3 and 4-year players into a really good ACC team, they have to be ACC caliber players to begin with, not Dick Wash and Melo Eggleston.

Absolutely. I should have thrown Tony Bennett in this category too. He has guys who were role players for a year or two, then starters and future NBA players.

All coaches are going to miss on some players. Bennett has at UVa. Prosser missed on some as well. But guys figure that out and either leave or stay for the education. These days, most leave. UVa two years ago lost quite a number of players. It was a surprise. They didn't blink. That is because they have a sytem, FAITH in their system, and ACC talent. It becomes a matter of whether you have 8 or 9 ACC level players or 6 or 7 (if a few wash out unexpectedly, like at UVa a few years ago).

I still want us to have talent to the point that we lose guys early to the NBA a year or two early - I just think you need to calibrate a strategy that essentially ignores guys looking for one year contracts. One or two may fall into your lap (Zion to Clemson last year almost), but let Calipari and K take those guys. After Coach K, it will probably be Bruce Pearl or some such state school pseudo hoops factory where they can take a few easy comms classes, Swahili (if UNC tries that route again) and one and done it. I don't think it is sustainable unless/until you become a coaching legend.

 

[saltydeac]

One of the few benefits of having one of, if not the worse WF bball team in decades, is you actually completely forget the Deacs are even playing and have good quality family time and getting other things done around the house stress free not wasting 2 hours of your life watching a bball game.

Actually wouldn't have even thought to check results until just checking boards to see what is up with our other sports teams. So sad I used to look forward to each and every game.

While I agree Ronnie has too much ego to boot Manning I do think he has to be getting really itchy at this point. I mean it is beyond a clown show now and Ronnie's legacy is quickly painting himself as chief bozo to let this comedy show continue to play out when the rest of the world squirms for a once beloved player. It has moved from a slow bleed to outright blood gusher and everyone is just sadly watching patient die.

 

[Biff Tannen]

And you have to actually keep them 3 or 4 years. We’ve been getting 4 year players and keeping them a year.

Right. We actually have a decent nucleus of kids would would be good 3 and 4-year players, but they're all freshmen and sophomores young except Childress. On top ofthat, there's no telling how many will actually be back. the nucleus I'm talking about is:

Hoard, Mucius, Wright, Wynn, Sarr, and Brown

That crew, combined with a competent crew of juniors and seniors should be pretty good, especially when you throw in the occasional 5-star player. But by and large, that's not how college basketball works these days and waiting three years to see if you're on the right track is a pretty crappy way to run a basketball program after five years.

Would this team be better is Crawford and Moore were still here ? I absolutely hope so. But as has been pointed out, the team wasn't that great with them last year and they'd obviously had enough of the place and Mannning after three years.

 

[Biff Tannen]

Sure, but every ACC team has players like that on the roster. After the top 150 or so, you get some recruits that work out and some that don't.

Our upperclass roster consists of Childress and two grad transfers. That means none of them worked out.

 

[Biff Tannen]

Absolutely. I should have thrown Tony Bennett in this category too. He has guys who were role players for a year or two, then starters and future NBA players.

All coaches are going to miss on some players. Bennett has at UVa. Prosser missed on some as well. But guys figure that out and either leave and stay for the education. These days, most leave. UVa two years ago lost quite a number of players. It was a surprise. They didn't blink. That is because they have a sytem, FAITH in their system, and ACC talent. It becomes a matter of whether you have 8 or 9 ACC level players or 6 or 7 (if a few wash out unexpectedly, like at UVa a few years ago).

I still want us to have talent to the point that we lose guys early to the NBA a year or two early - I just think you need to calibrate a strategy that essentially ignores guys looking for one year contracts. One or two may fall into your lap (Zion to Clemson last year almost), but let Calipari and K take those guys. After Coach K, it will probably be Bruce Pearl or some such state school pseudo hoops factory where they can take a few easy comms classes, Swahili (if UNC tries that route again) and one and done it. I don't think it is sustainable unless/until you become a coaching legend.

Compare Todd Hendley and Jeremy Ingram to some of the stiffs that Manning has brought in.

 

[jaybone]

Right. We actually have a decent nucleus of kids would would be good 3 and 4-year players, but they're all freshmen and sophomores young except Childress. On top ofthat, there's no telling how many will actually be back. the nucleus I'm talking about is:

Hoard, Mucius, Wright, Wynn, Sarr, and Brown

That crew, combined with a competent crew of juniors and seniors should be pretty good, especially when you throw in the occasional 5-star player. But by and large, that's not how college basketball works these days and waiting three years to see if you're on the right track is a pretty crappy way to run a basketball program after five years.

Would this team be better is Crawford and Moore were still here ? I absolutely hope so. But as has been pointed out, the team wasn't that great with them last year and they'd obviously had enough of the place and Mannning after three years.

They are kids, so we are likely to lose half of those guys after the coaching change, but I am old enough to remember Steve Avery, Tommy Glavine and John Smoltz getting absolutely hammered as young pros. In fact, I think Steve Avery had the most success early as a Braves starter. Anyway, I do agree that our young nucleus is solid and assuming they stay and assuming we bring in a coach with enthusiasm and skills like Oats, they could likely be a really solid junior/senior class with good recruiting under them to fill the gaps.

 

[Biff Tannen]

They are kids, so we are likely to lose half of those guys after the coaching change, but I am old enough to remember Steve Avery, Tommy Glavine and John Smoltz getting absolutely hammered as young pros. In fact, I think Steve Avery had the most success early as a Braves starter. Anyway, I do agree that our young nucleus is solid and assuming they stay and assuming we bring in a coach with enthusiasm and skills like Oats, they could likely be a really solid junior/senior class with good recruiting under them to fill the gaps.

Yeah, but I'd say that there's about a 1% chance that Hoard is here as a junior and a 3% chance Sarr is here as a senior whether we change coaches or not, and that's when they'd actually be truly effective as college basketball players. And they'll probably be gone after this year.

 

[PhDeac]

One of the few benefits of having one of, if not the worse WF bball team in decades, is you actually completely forget the Deacs are even playing and have good quality family time and getting other things done around the house stress free not wasting 2 hours of your life watching a bball game.

Actually wouldn't have even thought to check results until just checking boards to see what is up with our other sports teams. So sad I used to look forward to each and every game.

While I agree Ronnie has too much ego to boot Manning I do think he has to be getting really itchy at this point. I mean it is beyond a clown show now and Ronnie's legacy is quickly painting himself as chief bozo to let this comedy show continue to play out when the rest of the world squirms for a once beloved player. It has moved from a slow bleed to outright blood gusher and everyone is just sadly watching patient die.

I was playing video games with my kids and had the game on a tablet beside me. I think I glanced over a half dozen times or so. My wife is going to hate it if we ever get good again. Every weekend in the Spring has opened up in the last few years.

 

[Fusiondad10]

Jaybone's posts are right on. Only if you go back to the Odom days did we have our best players staying 3 or 4 years. Since then we had some success under Prosser and Dino but only during the first 2 years of the CP3, Teague, JJ, and AFA years. Then they left and we weren't able to replace their talent level consistently. Truthfully, without something intangible like a successful program identity coupled with excellent coaching, recruiting, and player development of 3 and 4 years guys we are NEVER going to be able to achieve top tier status again. Getting the Jaylen Hoards and Chaundee Browns is not nearly enough at Wake Forest. And don't be naive, the academic standards at Wake are a legit obstacle to continuing success on the recruiting trail in basketball. The vast majority of the top talent in recruits want only one thing, a pro career.

 

[jaybone]

Yeah, but I'd say that there's about a 1% chance that Hoard is here as a junior and a 3% chance Sarr is here as a senior whether we change coaches or not, and that's when they'd actually be truly effective as college basketball players. And they'll probably be gone after this year.

Not sure what we are arguing. We are both mad and both want Manning gone this afternoon. We both think we need ACC level talent to succeed. Hoard for sure and Sarr most likely are ACC level players. With a good coach and a system, they'd be better players today than they are. In a great system and mentoring system, they'll leave when they are ready. In our "system," they'll leave as soon as they can - most likely.

Heck, I watch UVa succeed and I could easily imagine Salt on our team as a total scrub who fouls out in 8 minutes. He has a coach who has taught him what his skill set is, what his limitations are - or probably what his strengths are rather - and they win 90% of their games so it is fun. Is he a pro? In Adelaide maybe. You don't need 5 NBA players to have a great ACC team. You need two or three. You also need 5+ more ACC level players or Div 1 players you can coach up to ACC level. I actually think Rich Wash could have been a serviceable player for Buzz Williams or Bennett. By his 3rd or 4th year. Melo, not so much.

It is almost an injustice what we have done to about 25 scholarship athletes over the last 10 years. College on scholarship should be half ecstasy half hope with a lot of hard work thrown in, off season grinds. It looks like misery for about half our players. There is obviously pressure at this level to earn your free ride. Potentially, thousands if not millions of dollars are on the line dependent on your success and to some degree your team's success. When all that implodes, and you have a coach who seems to be in over head and already given up or throws you under the bus - that just sort of sucks.

 

[deactherunner]

"We're trying to get older." Unbelievable. No mention of transfers or the two 5th year graduate students on the roster each year?

In fairness, I'll bet he accomplishes this goal for Sunday's game-specifically, I'll bet our average team age increases by 4 days.

 

[warak]

so you guys are saying that we should go back to the [redacted] model or mid-major style? good grief!!!

honestly, i am not sure any more what will work outside of a coach that can really get players to buy in and light a fire in their asses. We have not seen that in so long.