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Marriage Equality

BBD, you've never understood my philosophy so you don't agree with it. Simple as that. Feel free to cite whatever data you think exists saying that it isn't a public policy issue normally reserved to the states. Activist federal judges that find a law archaic and invent reasons to make something a federal issue do not constitute data.
 
It was "within the state's traditional purview regarding public policy " to have segregation.

It was "within the state's traditional purview regarding public policy " to ban interracial marriage.

It was "within the state's traditional purview regarding public policy " to have poll taxes.

It's a non-starter.

Mr. Apples To Oranges goes predictably off the reservation again.
 
I have never alluded to religion in my opposition and I never will. Not to regurgitate and get into my oft-repeated justification that falls opon deaf ears in here, but my reasoning consists of the recognition that gay marriage is (1) within the state's traditional purview regarding public policy and (2) not a Constitutional issue.

Of gay marriage isn't within the "traditional purview" of public policy, then why is marriage? I agree with you that marriage shouldn't really be within the scope of the government at all, but since it is, then gay marriage should be too.
 
Mr. Apples To Oranges goes predictably off the reservation again.

Eh. He's not as far off as you would like to think he is. The first two were imputed into the constitution through the 14th Amendment, and then the poll tax was thrown in with the 24th, but I think there's a legitimate argument to be made that the 14th can be extended to gay people if we're not simply reading it explicitly as intended in the reconstruction era.
 
Of gay marriage isn't within the "traditional purview" of public policy, then why is marriage? I agree with you that marriage shouldn't really be within the scope of the government at all, but since it is, then gay marriage should be too.

No, I'm saying that the states traditionally have determined marital policy within their jurisdiction. They kind of have to be involved in marital policy for any number of reasons. I understand but don't buy the idea that since one marriage is allowed, [insert kind of marriage] should be too. It is amusing watching people defend polygamy on those grounds, however. They're trying to be consistent in their arguments, at least, but I think it's simply for the sake of appearing consistent and not because there's an honest defense of polygamy.
 
Eh. He's not as far off as you would like to think he is. The first two were imputed into the constitution through the 14th Amendment, and then the poll tax was thrown in with the 24th, but I think there's a legitimate argument to be made that the 14th can be extended to gay people if we're not simply reading it explicitly as intended in the reconstruction era.

You can apply the 14th amendment to just about anybody and anything if you get down to it, which is exactly why you do read it explicitly as intended, or damn close to it. Over the years, it has been bastardized for a number of causes, so it is no surprise to see it utilized for this issue. We have a nasty habit of being lazy and making a federal case out of anything we find to be antiquated or objectionable on a personal level. Politicians and judges show as little restraint in this regard as the people they supposedly represent.

But yes, RJ is off precisely because he fails to realize that there were clear 14th Amendment issues in all cases he provided, and an amendment put in place specifically for one of them. He also rather predictably finds the most odious examples of state policy rather than the ones he has no problems with. After all, if the state is advancing your interests, it must be ok.
 
No, I'm saying that the states traditionally have determined marital policy within their jurisdiction. They kind of have to be involved in marital policy for any number of reasons. I understand but don't buy the idea that since one marriage is allowed, [insert kind of marriage] should be too. It is amusing watching people defend polygamy on those grounds, however. They're trying to be consistent in their arguments, at least, but I think it's simply for the sake of appearing consistent and not because there's an honest defense of polygamy.

The number of reasons that states have to be involved in marriage policy does not/should not include determining who is allowed to marry whom. Now if you want to get into what state level benefits/exceptions are made for married people, yes that is a state issue.
 
I have never alluded to religion in my opposition and I never will. Not to regurgitate and get into my oft-repeated justification that falls opon deaf ears in here, but my reasoning consists of the recognition that gay marriage is (1) within the state's traditional purview regarding public policy and (2) not a Constitutional issue.

Can you help me out here? How do we get from "marriage is for states to decide" to opposition to gay marriage? If we take it as a given that a state can determine whether or not to allow same sex marriages, why should a state decide to ban gay marriage?
 
No, I'm saying that the states traditionally have determined marital policy within their jurisdiction. They kind of have to be involved in marital policy for any number of reasons. I understand but don't buy the idea that since one marriage is allowed, [insert kind of marriage] should be too. It is amusing watching people defend polygamy on those grounds, however. They're trying to be consistent in their arguments, at least, but I think it's simply for the sake of appearing consistent and not because there's an honest defense of polygamy.

Right, so if marital policy is within the purview of the state, then how is it not within the purview of the state to decide gay marriage?

My position has always hinged on the sole concept of consent. Are there consenting adults who agree to the relationship? If so, then it should be acceptable in the context of marriage.

I think consent is the right concept because it excludes: (1) people under the age of 18, who cannot legally consent, (2) coercive relationships where consent is forced, (3) anyone who is unable to make a decision for any number of reasons (i.e. disability, any other issue that precludes individual decision-making).

This isn't a way to force gay marriage or polygamy into a pigeonholed area, but rather I think a test which can be applied to any future type of relationship which people might be involved in in the future.
 
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Can you help me out here? How do we get from "marriage is for states to decide" to opposition to gay marriage? If we take it as a given that a state can determine whether or not to allow same sex marriages, why should a state decide to ban gay marriage?

I personally believe that homosexuals should have the right to a civil union (not marriage) with all of the rights of marriage except married couples should be preferred by the state in adoptions. Nevertheless, the below is a decent summation of the secular case against granting homosexuals the right to marry:

THE SECULAR CASE AGAINST GAY MARRIAGE

Adam Kolasinksi

Homosexual relationships do nothing to serve the state interest of propagating society, so there is no reason to grant them the costly benefits of marriage.

The Tech, Volume 124, Number 5
Tuesday, February 17, 2004

The debate over whether the state ought to recognize gay marriages has thus far focused on the issue as one of civil rights. Such a treatment is erroneous because state recognition of marriage is not a universal right. States regulate marriage in many ways besides denying men the right to marry men, and women the right to marry women. Roughly half of all states prohibit first cousins from marrying, and all prohibit marriage of closer blood relatives, even if the individuals being married are sterile. In all states, it is illegal to attempt to marry more than one person, or even to pass off more than one person as one's spouse. Some states restrict the marriage of people suffering from syphilis or other venereal diseases. Homosexuals, therefore, are not the only people to be denied the right to marry the person of their choosing.

I do not claim that all of these other types of couples restricted from marrying are equivalent to homosexual couples. I only bring them up to illustrate that marriage is heavily regulated, and for good reason. When a state recognizes a marriage, it bestows upon the couple certain benefits which are costly to both the state and other individuals. Collecting a deceased spouse's social security, claiming an extra tax exemption for a spouse, and having the right to be covered under a spouse's health insurance policy are just a few examples of the costly benefits associated with marriage. In a sense, a married couple receives a subsidy. Why? Because a marriage between to unrelated heterosexuals is likely to result in a family with children, and propagation of society is a compelling state interest. For this reason, states have, in varying degrees, restricted from marriage couples unlikely to produce children.

Granted, these restrictions are not absolute. A small minority of married couples are infertile. However, excluding sterile couples from marriage, in all but the most obvious cases such as those of blood relatives, would be costly. Few people who are sterile know it, and fertility tests are too expensive and burdensome to mandate. One might argue that the exclusion of blood relatives from marriage is only necessary to prevent the conception of genetically defective children, but blood relatives cannot marry even if they undergo sterilization. Some couples who marry plan not to have children, but without mind-reaching technology, excluding them is impossible. Elderly couples can marry, but such cases are so rare that it is simply not worth the effort to restrict them. The marriage laws, therefore, ensure, albeit imperfectly, that the vast majority of couples who do get the benefits of marriage are those who bear children.

Homosexual relationships do nothing to serve the state interest of propagating society, so there is no reason for the state to grant them the costly benefits of marriage, unless they serve some other state interest. The burden of proof, therefore, is on the advocates of gay marriage to show what state interest these marriages serve. Thus far, this burden has not been met.

One may argue that lesbians are capable of procreating via artificial insemination, so the state does have an interest in recognizing lesbian marriages, but a lesbian's sexual relationship, committed or not, has no bearing on her ability to reproduce. Perhaps it may serve a state interest to recognize gay marriages to make it easier for gay couples to adopt. However, there is ample evidence (see, for example, David Popenoe's Life Without Father) that children need both a male and female parent for proper development. Unfortunately, small sample sizes and other methodological problems make it impossible to draw conclusions from studies that directly examine the effects of gay parenting. However, the empirically verified common wisdom about the importance of a mother and father in a child's development should give advocates of gay adoption pause. The differences between men and women extend beyond anatomy, so it is essential for a child to be nurtured by parents of both sexes if a child is to learn to function in a society made up of both sexes. Is it wise to have a scoial policy that encourages family arrangements that deny children such essentials? Gays are not necessarily bad parents, nor will they necessarily make their children gay, but they cannot provide a set of parents that includes both a male and a female.

Some have compared the prohibition of homosexual marriage to the prohibition of interracial marriage. This analogy fails because fertility does not depend on race, making race irrelevant to the state's interest in marriage. By contrast, homosexuality is highly relevant because it precludes procreation.

Some argue that homosexual marriages serve a state interest because they enable gays to live in committed relationships. However, there is nothing stopping homosexuals from living in such relationships today. Advocates of gay marriage claim gay couples need marriage in order to have hospital visitation and inheritance rights, but they can easily obtain these rights by writing a living will and having each partner designate the other as trustee and heir. There is nothing stopping gay couples from signing a joint lease or owning a house jointly, as many single straight people do with roommates. The only benefits of marriage from which homosexual couples are restricted are those that are costly to the state and society.

Some argue that the link between marriage and procreation is not as strong as it once was, and they are correct. Until recently, the primary purpose of marriage, in every society around the world, has been procreation. In the 20th century, Western societies have downplayed the procreative aspect of marriage, much to our detriment. As a result, the happiness of the parties to the marriage, rather than the good of the children or the social order, has become its primary end, with disastrous consequences. When married persons care more about themselves than their responsibilities to their children and society, they become more willing to abandon these responsibilities, leading to broken homes, a plummeting birthrate, and countless other social pathologies that have become rampant over the last 40 years. Homosexual marriage is not the cause for any of these pathologies, but it will exacerbate them, as the granting of marital benefits to a category of sexual relationships that are necessarily sterile can only widen the separation between marriage and procreation.

The biggest danger homosexual civil marriage presents is the enshrining into law the notion that sexual love, regardless of its fecundity, is the sole criterion for marriage. If the state must recognize a marriage of two men simply because they love one another, upon what basis cant it deny marital recognition to a group of two men and three women, for example, or a sterile brother and sister who claim to love each other? Homosexual activists protest that they only want all couples treated equally. But why is sexual love between two people more worthy of state sanction that love between three, or five? When the purpose of marriage is procreation, the answer is obvious. If sexual love becomes the primary purpose, the restriction of marriage to couples loses its logical basis, leading to marital chaos.
 
The state's function is not to promote fertility. Asinine.
 
A same sex marriage of two high-earners - let's say $400k+/year - with no estates (they spend all their money because they have no heirs and no concern about the future) has no costly benefits and would in fact lead to greater revenues for the state.

That's a vapid and stupid article and I regret that I am compelled to negrep you for wasting my time.
 
The fertility argument has always been the last gasp of the anti gay crowd. The only good thing I can say about it is that when Catholics trot it out, at least it is consistent with their views on marriage theologically. Pretty much every other group forgot about marriage-as-baby-machine a couple generations ago, and now suddenly has rediscovered it as the last line of defense against those awful gays.
 
The concept of fertility is ludicrous. Thousands and thousands of gay couple have natural children every year.

Using the same logic heterosexual couples couples who can't or don't want to have kids shouldn't be given the title of marriage either.
 
If that's your counter, then you didn't read very closely.

Summary of article:

Gays can't procreate, should be locked out of marriage. Handwaving about all manner of straight couples that can't procreate.

I don't see how it would be overly burdensome to prevent post-menopausal people from getting a marriage license given that the Register of Deeds' people ask for IDs. Over 50, no marriage, sorry. That's clean and easy.

It's dumb. It's beneath Wake Forest. You deserved a negrep. I'm sorry that you have a sad.
 
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