Mt. Tabor High Shooting

[plama]

Let's say we want to stop armed break-ins. Have armed break-ins decreased since gun rights have expanded? I don't have that data. Answering that question would help us understand if more guns prevents armed break-ins at a societal level.

I was looking into that data a bit earlier today using UK as an example that has 4x less the murder rate and alot less the rate of gun related murder rate. Yet on the CT we got wakephan saying he was robbed like 3x in london, and robberies and rapes are 2x as common in the UK where no one has a gun compared to the US.

You would have to think the whole armed populace thing would serve to deter folks from robbing people out in the country

 

[deacdiggler]

There’s a distinction between responsible gun owners and irresponsible “gun nuts”. And painting anybody that owns a gun as a gun nut is counter productive and insulting. It’s only going to result in responsible gun owners pushing back on reasonable gun control measures because of a feeling of persecution.

I saw this post from a few days ago quoted and the bolded part struck me as one of our biggest hurdles to overcome in this area. I don't think you meant this to apply to yourself, but just to point it out: if you push back on reasonable gun control measures simply because it makes you feel persecuted, then maybe you're not a Responsible Gun Owner (which I shall henceforth call an "RGO" to save myself some typing.)

If I'm reading the room right, most RGOs would welcome reasonable restrictions on the ability of people to have them - background checks, mental health, etc, that would point to RGO status. I think that's what most americans actually want. The problem is that there's an overreach on both sides. Some people will push to repeal the second amendment or something along those lines once we put in place reasonable restrictions. So instead of coming to a reasonable compromise, pro-gun lobbies refuse to give any ground that isn't taken from their "cold dead hands," and the RGOs get pulled along with this.

Most of you sound like true RGOs here. (Most. There are a couple of you that i'm not sure about. )

 

[birdman]

This is true, but if gun laws are tightened, both are even less likely to happen. Other developed countries don’t have to worry about either.

Yeah, no doubt, the obvious solution to both problems is fewer guns. Obvious solutions are often clouded out by skewed risk assessments and emotion.

 

[birdman]

What's a high society event? Looks like 14k gun homicides a year, around 40% of which the people are drunk. More than half the people (60%) aren't white. So there are a couple thousand sober white dudes who love their guns causing death a year. Compared to the 100k annual alcohol related deaths and the 600k covid related deaths some of us shrugging off these days...... seems just another case of social media and the news making things out to be a larger problem than it is. It seems like it's literally an issue equal to the amount of people who died from COVID today.

I'd imagine if you're a white dude and not in a trailer park or fucking your neighbor's wife.... you're probably not gonna die from a white redneck weilding a gun.

High probability society level events, means that they happen every day in our society. Since the Mt. Tabor school shooting we've had, what three separate mass shootings in the country? Since that day there have been 1000s of break-ins. So these are very common occurrences in our society, but unlikely to directly affect any individual citizen out of 350 million. That commonness in society, leads to people way over estimating their own personal risk.

 

[birdman]

Here's one way to think about that issue. Both are low probability personal events. Both are high probability society level events. Both events happen regularly. So if we care about our society beyond just ourselves, we should figure out how to address the issues of armed break-ins and mass shootings.

My purpose was to talk about why people like 77 think they definitely need a gun under their pillow to protect their family. They are way over estimating their personal risk because low probability events with severe consequences are hard to think about in objective rational ways. He'd be way more effective at protecting his family if he installed surveillance cameras and posted signage advertising the cameras, but instead he has a gun vehemently defends his right to have one.

 

[Strickland33]

One could say that the fear of the miniscule chance you or someone you know will die from a gun death is also something not to up and change our constitution over. I mean if you're going the public safety argument you're gonna have to ban booze too

I felt like that about COVID, but we decided as a society that stacking a million bodies was cool and are now actively empowering dudes taking my dog's heartworm meds to own the libs.

 

[Strickland33]

if you push back on reasonable gun control measures simply because it makes you feel persecuted, then maybe you're not a Responsible Gun Owner

^^^

 

[PhDeac]

One could say that the fear of the miniscule chance you or someone you know will die from a gun death is also something not to up and change our constitution over. I mean if you're going the public safety argument you're gonna have to ban booze too

I missed the humor in this post the first time with respect to the 18th and 21st amendments.

We can repeal shitty amendments. We’ve done it before.

 

[Rafi]

What's a high society event? Looks like 14k gun homicides a year, around 40% of which the people are drunk. More than half the people (60%) aren't white. So there are a couple thousand sober white dudes who love their guns causing death a year.

But there are so many more affected by gun violence. There are tens of thousands of suicides. At Mt Tabor 1500 kids spent hours in lockdown and have been out of school for days. Many kids and teachers heard the gunshots. Many saw the shooting and aftermath. Schools across the district went on lockdown with kids at other high schools thinking the shooter was heading to their high school next.

So from a society event, this one shooting affected thousands.

 

[Screamindemon3]

Gang related retaliation is what I heard this evening. Said the deceased student was involved in a drive by incident recently. Shooter specifically target this student and had folks waiting by to get him off campus as quick as possible.

Heard more confirmations on this over the weekend:

Gang retaliation. Shooter had only be enrolled at Mt. Tabor for 3 days. Reached over a teacher and one shot the victim in the chest. Threw the gun in the trash and had a ride back to his house where he was arrested later that day. No shots fired at Harris Teeter, someone reved a truck and it was mistaken for gunfire.

 

[Deleted member 7528]

Heard more confirmations on this over the weekend:

Gang retaliation. Shooter had only be enrolled at Mt. Tabor for 3 days. Reached over a teacher and one shot the victim in the chest. Threw the gun in the trash and had a ride back to his house where he was arrested later that day. No shots fired at Harris Teeter, someone reved a truck and it was mistaken for gunfire.

FFS. So stupid.

 

[scooter84]

The only reason your daydream is a (very farfetched) realty is because you insist on every person having the right to own barbaric instruments of death.

If we all agreed that this was bad and removed them from our society, we would have the minuscule amount of gun deaths that all of other peer nations have. You understand this, right?

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gun-deaths-by-country

The language you use for this discussion makes it impossible to engage in meaningful discourse. No one "insists on every person" have the right to own a gun. And calling them 'barbaric instruments of death" is not helpful. I know hunters who hunt for food. I know hunters who hunt for sport and adventure. I know competitive shooters who go around competing in contests of skill. I know people who collect antique and/or rare guns for their beauty and value. Gun owners are as diverse as any other segment of society and insisting on grouping them all as one and treating them as barbaric and violent people hurts your cause and your credibility.

 

[BillBrasky]

The language you use for this discussion makes it impossible to engage in meaningful discourse. No one "insists on every person" have the right to own a gun. And calling them 'barbaric instruments of death" is not helpful. I know hunters who hunt for food. I know hunters who hunt for sport and adventure. I know competitive shooters who go around competing in contests of skill. I know people who collect antique and/or rare guns for their beauty and value. Gun owners are as diverse as any other segment of society and insisting on grouping them all as one and treating them as barbaric and violent people hurts your cause and your credibility.

So you’re for background checks and gun safety certification before gun ownership, right?

Or do you think ALL people should be able to own assault weapons like they can in NC?

 

[Donkey Deac Doug]

My purpose was to talk about why people like 77 think they definitely need a gun under their pillow to protect their family. They are way over estimating their personal risk because low probability events with severe consequences are hard to think about in objective rational ways. He'd be way more effective at protecting his family if he installed surveillance cameras and posted signage advertising the cameras, but instead he has a gun vehemently defends his right to have one.

There are WAY more B+E's than there are school shootings. I would be blown away if 4/5 people haven't had a B+E experience at least once in their lives; with some of those individuals having crazy disproportionate numbers (>10).

 

[Rafi]

There are WAY more B+E's than there are school shootings. I would be blown away if 4/5 people haven't had a B+E experience at least once in their lives; with some of those individuals having crazy disproportionate numbers (>10).

There are about 90 burglaries that end in homicide in the US per year. This includes all burglaries, not just home invasion. There were 44,000 gun deaths in the US in 2020.

 

[birdman]

There are WAY more B+E's than there are school shootings. I would be blown away if 4/5 people haven't had a B+E experience at least once in their lives; with some of those individuals having crazy disproportionate numbers (>10).

But what is the fatality risk of a B+E? Really low.

 

[birdman]

There are about 90 burglaries that end in homicide in the US per year. This includes all burglaries, not just home invasion. There were 44,000 gun deaths in the US in 2020.

Correction...the fatality risk from a B+E is really really really low. (Thanks for the data Rafi.)

 

[PhDeac]

The language you use for this discussion makes it impossible to engage in meaningful discourse. No one "insists on every person" have the right to own a gun. And calling them 'barbaric instruments of death" is not helpful. I know hunters who hunt for food. I know hunters who hunt for sport and adventure. I know competitive shooters who go around competing in contests of skill. I know people who collect antique and/or rare guns for their beauty and value. Gun owners are as diverse as any other segment of society and insisting on grouping them all as one and treating them as barbaric and violent people hurts your cause and your credibility.

Why is it that gun owners killing people with guns doesn’t hurt their cause and credibility?

 

[BarcaDeac]

Would be interested in the B&E numbers where the occupants are home vs not. Seems like a lot of the ones we see in Asheville and when I lived in DC were daytime smash and grab type things. Break a door or window and grab a laptop or iPad or something.

 

[Donkey Deac Doug]

Correction...the fatality risk from a B+E is really really really low. (Thanks for the data Rafi.)

I'm less worried about the B+Es where someone dies, and way more worried about rapes or someone in my house that shouldn't be.

If you take away my gun, there's nothing I (or my wife) can do to stop two men from coming in my home. The police are 15 minutes away.