MTOW, Dan's Post Game Assessment

[deacz]

This is pretty outstanding (see pos rep). I'd only comment that we might need an additional level -- perhaps 1B -- for people who for whatever reason think [Redacted] was a good and/or justifiable hire initially but admit he's underperformed at Wake. (I'm thinking specifically about posters who might think [Redacted] was "a good choice to come in and clean up the program" or "was a proven program-builder, it just hasn't worked out at Wake." Maybe there aren't any such posters, but w/e.)

Agree with this. Great list, but definitely needs a category for the red-herring "culture" defense of Bz, i.e., Dino had "thugs" and "hooligans" raping and pillaging campus, pre-NBA, early entries, etc. In certain cases subjects will not actually defend Bz, but rather only will harp on how much potential danger Dino caused to the program and school's reputation (NCAA sanctions, missed classes, co-ed fornication, tattoos, etc.).

 

[PhDeac]

Do you think saying [Redacted] had little or nothing to do with Colorado's success during the 2 years after he left is rational and fact-based?

Do you think saying a good hire could win 20+ games each year for the next 2 years at Wake is irrational?

I think OGB and others have posted a lot of facts from the 2 years after he left. You posted an opinion column from before Boyle or Bz had coached a single game.

It's not irrational to say a good hire could win 20+ games the next two years.

 

[ImTheCaptain]

...especially if they set a schedule like this year's

 

[DCDeac]

I think OGB and others have posted a lot of facts from the 2 years after he left. You posted an opinion column from before Boyle or Bz had coached a single game.

It's not irrational to say a good hire could win 20+ games the next two years.

Guess you didn't actually read the links. There's a lot of opinion about what the tiny number of facts in those articles mean, both here and on the Colorado boards. Also, our main disagreement is simply who gets credit between Abatemarco and [Redacted]. I'm like 80/20 he's at 100/0. When discussing what Boyle inherited, it makes absolutely no difference who you credit between those two. OGB assumes [Redacted] had nothing to do with the Roberson recruitment in his final month. I assume he had some part in it, even if it was a small one. [Redacted]'s comments support that - he says they're self-serving lies. I think that's a stretch.

Even outside of the Roberson thing, he still inherited two top 50 Wooden Finalists for a year, and his 3rd leading scorer in Austin Dufault the following year. And they won 24 games each year. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone outside of the Wake/Colorado world who'd argue Boyle inherited a shitty job. Just like I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone outside the Wake world who would suggest [Redacted] should be back next year barring a post-season appearance.

 

[TBR]

Do you think saying [Redacted] had little or nothing to do with Colorado's success during the 2 years after he left is rational and fact-based?

Do you think saying a good hire could win 20+ games each year for the next 2 years at Wake is irrational?

[Redacted] did not build a foundation for Boyle at Colorado. That is both rational and fact based. By Boyle's 2nd year, 70% of minutes were played by players who committed to Boyle, not [Redacted]. That's a pretty cut and dry fact.

 

[DCDeac]

[Redacted] did not build a foundation for Boyle at Colorado. That is both rational and fact based. By Boyle's 2nd year, 70% of minutes were played by players who committed to Boyle, not [Redacted]. That's a pretty cut and dry fact.

Only if you don't count Roberson, the source of the discussion. I have no problem crediting Roberson to Abatemarco. But he was not a Boyle find and he was not a Boyle recruit. Based on the quotes and the timeline by the time Boyle spoke to him right before he took the job, Roberson had already visited Colorado and was already set on going there. Boyle gets credit for locking him down and for greatly expanding the talent base quickly. By Boyle's own admission he was absolutely not recruiting the kid prior to being hired at Colorado - he said he remembered him from an AAU game but didn't recruit him.

Boyle had a cake walk to 20 wins his first year and was handed 2 starters that were core to his NCAA team in year 2. Those are the facts if you leave out how much of the credit [Redacted] versus Abatemarco deserve.

 

[TBR]

Only if you don't count Roberson, the source of the discussion. I have no problem crediting Roberson to Abatemarco. But he was not a Boyle find and he was not a Boyle recruit. Based on the quotes and the timeline by the time Boyle spoke to him right before he took the job, Roberson had already visited Colorado and was already set on going there. Boyle gets credit for locking him down and for greatly expanding the talent base quickly. By Boyle's own admission he was absolutely not recruiting the kid prior to being hired at Colorado - he said he remembered him from an AAU game but didn't recruit him.

Boyle had a cake walk to 20 wins his first year and was handed 2 starters that were core to his NCAA team in year 2. Those are the facts if you leave out how much of the credit [Redacted] versus Abatemarco deserve.

Roberson was certainly more of a Boyle recruit than a [Redacted] recruit. If you remove him from the equation altogether, Boyle still recruited 56% of the minutes and 64% of the points on that 2nd team. So, yeah, the foundation was still not built by [Redacted].

 

[DCDeac]

Roberson was certainly more of a Boyle recruit than a [Redacted] recruit. If you remove him from the equation altogether, Boyle still recruited 56% of the minutes and 64% of the points on that 2nd team. So, yeah, the foundation was still not built by [Redacted].

Wait, so basically half the minutes in his 2nd year and the vast majority in his first year isn't a foundation for teams that won 48 games? We just have different definitions of what a good situation/foundation is then.

Regardless he sure as hell isn't getting it done at Wake - last time I checked we're in year 4 with zero Wooden top 50's on the team. Meanwhile Boyle is 9-1 and beat Kansas already. Ask me what coach I'd rather have hired...

 

[ChrisL68]

Wait, so basically half the minutes in his 2nd year and the vast majority in his first year isn't a foundation for teams that won 48 games? We just have different definitions of what a good situation/foundation is then.

Regardless he sure as hell isn't getting it done at Wake - last time I checked we're in year 4 with zero Wooden top 50's on the team. Meanwhile Boyle is 9-1 and beat Kansas already. Ask me what coach I'd rather have hired...

Not nearly as much of a foundation as [Redacted] relied upon for his only real college success at Air Force. That team was almost exclusively signed by another head coach.

 

[DCDeac]

Not nearly as much of a foundation as [Redacted] relied upon for his only real college success at Air Force. That team was almost exclusively signed by another head coach.

Hell he was only there for 2 years. Did he recruit anybody?

 

[ChrisL68]

Hell he was only there for 2 years. Did he recruit anybody?

Considering they went winless in the MWC two years after he left, I think the answer is no.

That's why I will never understand Wellman's decision. Every good thing in Bzzzz's resume has a giant asterisk or red flag beside it.

 

[OldGoldBeard]

Guess you didn't actually read the links. There's a lot of opinion about what the tiny number of facts in those articles mean, both here and on the Colorado boards. Also, our main disagreement is simply who gets credit between Abatemarco and [Redacted]. I'm like 80/20 he's at 100/0. When discussing what Boyle inherited, it makes absolutely no difference who you credit between those two. OGB assumes [Redacted] had nothing to do with the Roberson recruitment in his final month. I assume he had some part in it, even if it was a small one. [Redacted]'s comments support that - he says they're self-serving lies. I think that's a stretch.

Apart from the one self-serving remark from [Redacted], I can't remember seeing anything to indicate that [Redacted] was actively recruiting Roberson. It's entirely possible I've overlooked something, so I'd like to see any references you have. And to be fair to [Redacted], I wouldn't dispute that he did call him, but one call doesn't amount to much.

Have a good night, buddy.

This is pretty outstanding (see pos rep). I'd only comment that we might need an additional level -- perhaps 1B -- for people who for whatever reason think [Redacted] was a good and/or justifiable hire initially but admit he's underperformed at Wake. (I'm thinking specifically about posters who might think [Redacted] was "a good choice to come in and clean up the program" or "was a proven program-builder, it just hasn't worked out at Wake." Maybe there aren't any such posters, but w/e.)

Agree with this. Great list, but definitely needs a category for the red-herring "culture" defense of Bz, i.e., Dino had "thugs" and "hooligans" raping and pillaging campus, pre-NBA, early entries, etc. In certain cases subjects will not actually defend Bz, but rather only will harp on how much potential danger Dino caused to the program and school's reputation (NCAA sanctions, missed classes, co-ed fornication, tattoos, etc.).

Very good idea; that was definitely an oversight. I feel like that's between categories 2 and 3. May have to bump everything else up a notch.

 

[DCDeac]

OGB - were you not implying that Wellman was being dishonest when you called his comments "self-serving?" I thought that was the point of your comment. Apologies if I misinterpreted.

There are no details anywhere about how involved [Redacted] was. It is 100% fact that Abatemarco was seriously recruiting him prior to Boyle being named head coach or [Redacted] having any intention of leaving Colorado.

I think it's a really strange assumption that a head coach would have little to no input about recruiting a player that got to the point of unofficial visits being planned, but if that's your opinion fine. I simply disagree. There is no "factual" evidence to disprove either.

 

[DCDeac]

Considering they went winless in the MWC two years after he left, I think the answer is no.

That's why I will never understand Wellman's decision. Every good thing in Bzzzz's resume has a giant asterisk or red flag beside it.

I think he panicked after the first few rejections and just made a horrible decision.

 

[RChildress107]

DC, [Redacted] has failed on an historic level to right the ship for our program. If he leaves at the end of this year, he will be leaving us in a dramatically weaker position. There is no way around this fact.

I agree with you but that doesn't really jive with your whole "noone could have won 15 games with his 1st team" argument.

 

[OldGoldBeard]

OGB - were you not implying that Wellman was being dishonest when you called his comments "self-serving?" I thought that was the point of your comment. Apologies if I misinterpreted.

There are no details anywhere about how involved [Redacted] was. It is 100% fact that Abatemarco was seriously recruiting him prior to Boyle being named head coach or [Redacted] having any intention of leaving Colorado.

I think it's a really strange assumption that a head coach would have little to no input about recruiting a player that got to the point of unofficial visits being planned, but if that's your opinion fine. I simply disagree. There is no "factual" evidence to disprove either.

I generally take self-serving comments with a grain of salt, but do not dismiss them as outright lies without evidence to the contrary, no. Hence the "wouldn't dispute" language. I do believe, given the excessive number of man-hours this board has collectively wasted in delving into the Roberson recruitment, that if Bzz had had any major involvement in Roberson's recruitment, someone, somewhere would have uncovered it by now. But a phone call or two? Sure.