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MTOW, Dan's Post Game Assessment

DCDeac said:
I get that fans are so infuriated with Wellman and [Redacted] that they can't think straight. Hope we get a great new coach next year that can fire up the fan base and recruit at an ACC level.

Doesn't mean you have to ignore reality. Boyle should have made the NCAA's with Burks and Higgins. And the next year when he did make it, two of his best players were [Redacted] guys. It's not rocket science.

If Boyle year 1 was our year 4 with [Redacted], they went 19-12, (8-8 in conference) during the regular season. They've gone 59-26 since then with 2 NCAA tourneys and they just beat Kansas. I assume we'd be ok with that, especially with a new coach starting next year.

Ah, right, I forgot. The program has been "set back a decade" and Wellman is a total moron (who just hired Clawson) and [Redacted] is the anti-Christ. Carry on.
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Here are the players who played a significant role (played in most games) Boyle's 2nd year:
Andre Roberson (Boyle recruit, 30.2 mpg / 11.6 ppg / 1.4 apg / 11.1 rpg)
Nate Tomilson ([Redacted] recruit, 29.7 mpg / 5.5 ppg / 3.0 apg / 2.0 rpg)
Carlon Brown (Boyle recruit, 28.5 mpg / 12.6 ppg / 2.0 apg / 3.8 rpg)
Spencer Dinwiddle (Boyle recruit, 27.4 mpg / 10.0 ppg / 1.8 apg / 3.6 rpg)
Austin Dufault ([Redacted] recruit, 27.1 mpg / 11.1 ppg / 0.9 apg / 4.4 rpg)
Askia Booker (Boyle recruit, 21.5 mpg / 9.1 ppg / 1.4 apg / 2.7 rpg)
Shane Harris-Tunks ([Redacted] recruit, 12.8 mpg / 2.7 ppg / 0.5 apg / 2.2 rpg)
Sabatino Chen (Boyle recruit, 9.9 mpg / 2.0 ppg / 0.4 apg / 2.2 rpg)

If you add those all up, Boyle's recruits accounted for 63% of the minutes, 70% of the points, 51% of the assists, and 73% of the rebounds. But, yes, I am the one ignoring reality.

But, fine, if we are going to ignore that Roberson committed to Boyle, not [Redacted], then Boyle recruited 47% of the minutes, 52% of the points, 41% of the assists, and 38% of the rebounds. Given that we supposedly hired [Redacted] to build a program with 4 year players, those numbers don't reflect positively on him either.
 
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DCDeac is just getting destroyed in this thread.

Just give up, dude. You already have embarrassed yourself.
 
OldGoldBeard said:
We've had this argument before, and have extensively vetted the issue. You are wrong. [Redacted] had at most minimal contact with Roberson; it was Boyle who got him to Colorado. I suggest you drop the issue and move on.
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Actually we've had this discussion before and there are quotes from Roberson about [Redacted] beginning his recruiting, his unofficial visit when Abatemarco was recruiting him, then his official after [Redacted] left, and Boyle's locking him down. Those who for some reason just need to believe otherwise believe whatever they want. In the end it was absolutely Boyle who got him to Colorado, and he got Carlon who specifically said he'd never have played for [Redacted]. Boyle deserves credit. [Redacted] deserves credit. Abatemarco deserves credit and [Redacted] hired him. Who gives a shit? But it's simply incorrect to say [Redacted] didn't recruit Roberson when he met the kid and pursued him after Abatemarco found him and Boyle made him a top priority on day 1. When a recruit is already a top priority the day you get the job, the previous coaching staff helped.

On planet reality [Redacted] has done a very poor job at Wake and will be fired for it, in all likelihood, in a matter of months. Unfortunately for guys like you and Milhouse and DV7 and the standard crew that needs to twist every Wellman and [Redacted] action in the past and present as the pinnacle of idiocy - you simply can't handle broadly agreed-upon truths like "[Redacted] left Colorado in good shape."

Despite the fact that it doesn't discount how poorly he's done here, was mentioned by a poster who supports his removal, etc - it's not extreme enough of a viewpoint. Just like ripping Dan Collins for bashing the team after the Xavier loss because he didn't specifically call for [Redacted]'s firing.

It's ridiculous, and it exists in every fan base. And honestly Wake is probably better off having raving fans who are ready to fire a coach halfway through season 2 because that's how much they care. I just hope they show commensurate levels of support in $$$ once Clawson and [Redacted]'s replacement start winning games.
 
Look..saying Boyle had to basically rebuild after Burks left was probably too strong, but it is also too strong to act like [Redacted] had the program primed for a multi-year NCAA run. He didn't, and I am not really sure how you can spin the players and the stats to show otherwise.

To me, it seems pretty clear he had the Colorado program basically where he has the Wake Forest program today. Obviously we all agree that this Wake Forest program isn't headed in a bright direction.
 
TBR said:
Look..saying Boyle had to basically rebuild after Burks left was probably too strong, but it is also too strong to act like [Redacted] had the program primed for a multi-year NCAA run. He didn't, and I am not really sure how you can spin the players and the stats to show otherwise.

To me, it seems pretty clear he had the Colorado program basically where he has the Wake Forest program today. Obviously we all agree that this Wake Forest program isn't headed in a bright direction.
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I mean, that's fair - except we don't have a lottery pick on our team. I'd say Colorado was in better shape, and if that's because his assistants were better recruiters then shame on us for making him adopt ours. Codi is looking good but he's no Burks. Plus having 19 sophomores is going to screw us as well.

I hope if Wellman is still dreaming [Redacted] might succeed next year he can look at the fact that he couldn't get Wake Forest to the same point as Colorado got to in 4 years. Wake should have been the far easier job, yet we're worse off now. It doesn't really matter if Wake fans believe he rebuilt something at Colorado - Wellman believes it and a lot of the media supports it. Fucking up this year as opposed to Colorado's 4th year team is probably an important key to Wellman admitting his hunch didn't work out and it's time to pull the trigger.
 
DCDeac said:
Actually we've had this discussion before and there are quotes from Roberson about [Redacted] beginning his recruiting, his unofficial visit when Abatemarco was recruiting him, then his official after [Redacted] left, and Boyle's locking him down. Those who for some reason just need to believe otherwise believe whatever they want. In the end it was absolutely Boyle who got him to Colorado, and he got Carlon who specifically said he'd never have played for [Redacted]. Boyle deserves credit. [Redacted] deserves credit. Abatemarco deserves credit and [Redacted] hired him. Who gives a shit? But it's simply incorrect to say [Redacted] didn't recruit Roberson when he met the kid and pursued him after Abatemarco found him and Boyle made him a top priority on day 1. When a recruit is already a top priority the day you get the job, the previous coaching staff helped.
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Apart from the one self-serving remark from [Redacted], I can't remember seeing anything to indicate that [Redacted] was actively recruiting Roberson. It's entirely possible I've overlooked something, so I'd like to see any references you have. And to be fair to [Redacted], I wouldn't dispute that he did call him, but one call doesn't amount to much.

The Abatemarco material seems to come from this Denver Post article and this blog post. However, the DP piece says that "Abatemarco found Roberson." Abatemarco was hired on March 17, 2010, four weeks before [Redacted] was hired at Wake. Even if you make the highly improbably assumption that Abatemarco found Roberson right away, that gives [Redacted] less than a month to cultivate and recruit him. There's not even a record of a visit until after Bz left (see DP piece).

While the "top priority from day one" language may hold true in most cases, Boyle had already seen Roberson when his AAU team played at Northern Colorado, where Boyle was then coaching, and was recruiting him. In fact, Roberson confirmed that they sat down and talked with Boyle even before he was hired at Colorado. What did they talk about? Not the great foundation [Redacted] had left, but rather, "how to turn this organization around."

The only quote I can find from Roberson mentioning [Redacted], is this somewhat less-than-flattering remark from a CU blog. "We've definitely emerged, especially on the defensive end," Roberson said of CU's success since heading west. "I know before, when they were in the Big 12, they had the Princeton offense with (Jeff) [Redacted]. I feel like we're a little more up and down, high tempo game, and that's what the fans want."

So unless you want to impute all of Abatemarco's actions to [Redacted], I don't see how Bzz deserves any real credit for recruiting Roberson.
 
I'm really not trying to defend [Redacted] to the degree some are painting here.

The guy was the head coach. He hired Abatemarco. He met Roberson during recruiting. He was identified by Abatemarco as a target despite low rankings, which is kind of [Redacted]'s calling card. Nobody has any idea what the true details were during recruiting meetings. Did Abatemarco show [Redacted] film on him and they agreed he was a great target? Was [Redacted] on the fence? His first unofficial visit was before Boyle was hired - and I guess you're assuming that [Redacted] and Abatemarco never made a visit to see the kid play.

We're talking about what Boyle inherited. He inherited Abatemarco, a [Redacted] hire. He inherited a kid in Roberson who would go on to be a double-double machine and he had no part in finding him, nor did anyone he hired have any part in finding him. He admits in that article he saw him in the AAU game but did not recruit him, yet their first talk sounds like it was given that he'd be at Colorado and they could turn things around. I've said Boyle landed the kid and he deserves credit for that, everyone loved the up-tempo offense over [Redacted]'s. But the simple facts are that Roberson, whether you want to give the credit of finding him 100% to Albetemarco or not, was recruited while [Redacted] was head coach and found by [Redacted]'s staff. By all reports Boyle locking him up was a simple affair, if not already a done deal.

It's a real stretch to say that during more than a month between Abatemarco identifying him and [Redacted] getting offered by Wake, at no time did [Redacted] look at the kid, talk priorities about him, etc. Plus as an under-the-radar guy he is basically a [Redacted] wet dream recruit, and [Redacted] has mentioned him in interviews. So it's just an odd assumption to make unless you're really trying to give [Redacted] as little credit for anything as possible - particularly since how much it was Abatemarco versus [Redacted] really makes no difference to the reality of what Boyle inherited.

This has gone off the rails so I'll leave it at that. The whole point starting out was that if we fire [Redacted] after the season, there's reason to hope that we could be very good for the next couple of years. Similar to Colorado, we have some solid starters and some role-players who will make great juniors and seniors. A new coach comes in, finds a couple legit recruits to add to the mix, and there's no reason we can't win 20+ games until the sophomores graduate.
 
If you think Buzz is good at building programs, watch how bad we are next year, regardless of who the coach is (assuming we don't try to bail ourselves out with another 5th year transfer). Just watch.
 
RJKarl said:
It's irrelevant whether we knew about the injuries in April 2010. By November 2010 they had taken place.

Are you saying that the injuries wouldn't magically have not happened had Dino not been fired?

You can't get to that number of wins without changing the history of the injuries and of Tony Woods' problem. The hand that was dealt to be played in 2010-11 season included all the injuries and losing Woods.

Given that was the team we had, no one on the planet could have won fifteen games with the roster we had.

Dino couldn't beat Cleveland State with 3 Top 20 draft picks and another player who is still in the NBA. Think of how bad he would have been with a decimated roster.

You can't magically eliminate the injuries and Tony Woods' because you want to do so. It's a totally BS position to take.
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As to the bold you seemed to indicate otherwise earlier in the thread with this exact quote:

"Add to this that there theoretically was a reason to get rid of Dino. Thus our failing season was to be expected."

I was merely pointing out that in April (when we got rid of Dino) most of us probably expected a 15-17 win season (failing but not nearly on the level bzz failed).

As far as the injuries and Tony Woods problem you are right. I can't say that they wouldn't have happened if Dino was coach. I also can't say that they would have happened. It's all pure speculation, a point I have already made and one echoed by Strickland.

I just think it is disingenuous to suggest that an 8-24 season was expected when Dino was fired and that not even John Wooden could have won 15 games with the roster we ended up with. Ultimately that team was done in primarily be a lack of a coherent game plan and a lack of giving a shit. The roster depletion didn't help but a decent coach would have salvaged a much better season out of it.
 
Right, because clearly I'm arguing that [Redacted] is doing a good job at Wake.

By the way, SI ranked Boyle #1 as inheriting the most favorable situation in the nation at Colorado the year he was hired.
 
DCDeac said:
Right, because clearly I'm arguing that [Redacted] is doing a good job at Wake.

By the way, SI ranked Boyle #1 as inheriting the most favorable situation in the nation at Colorado the year he was hired.
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Link?
 
RJKarl said:
It's irrelevant whether we knew about the injuries in April 2010. By November 2010 they had taken place.

Are you saying that the injuries wouldn't magically have not happened had Dino not been fired?

You can't get to that number of wins without changing the history of the injuries and of Tony Woods' problem. The hand that was dealt to be played in 2010-11 season included all the injuries and losing Woods.

Given that was the team we had, no one on the planet could have won fifteen games with the roster we had.

Dino couldn't beat Cleveland State with 3 Top 20 draft picks and another player who is still in the NBA. Think of how bad he would have been with a decimated roster.

You can't magically eliminate the injuries and Tony Woods' because you want to do so. It's a totally BS position to take.
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The following year he had 1 Top 20 draft pick and another player who spent time in the NBA and went one round further in the NCAA tournament.
 
Of course it refers to two players who only played for Boyle for one year.
 
RChildress107 said:
As to the bold you seemed to indicate otherwise earlier in the thread with this exact quote:

"Add to this that there theoretically was a reason to get rid of Dino. Thus our failing season was to be expected."

I was merely pointing out that in April (when we got rid of Dino) most of us probably expected a 15-17 win season (failing but not nearly on the level bzz failed).

As far as the injuries and Tony Woods problem you are right. I can't say that they wouldn't have happened if Dino was coach. I also can't say that they would have happened. It's all pure speculation, a point I have already made and one echoed by Strickland.

I just think it is disingenuous to suggest that an 8-24 season was expected when Dino was fired and that not even John Wooden could have won 15 games with the roster we ended up with. Ultimately that team was done in primarily be a lack of a coherent game plan and a lack of giving a shit. The roster depletion didn't help but a decent coach would have salvaged a much better season out of it.
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I NEVER said that.

All that's RELEVANT is what Dino or anyone else would have done with the cards that were dealt for the 2010-11 season in the fall.

To extrapolate that I was saying we'd go 8-24 in April is totally false.
 
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