MTOW, Dan's Post Game Assessment

[VaDeac]

The London hire is only controversial in retrospect. You could see the hire coming from a mile away at the time and it was an absolute no-brainer. This board, in particular, loved it some London.

It was nowhere near the WTF the Bz hire was.

 

[BobStackFan4Life]

It was a terrible hire, but let's not go overboard with this "no other AD could make such a hire" nonsense.

I just don't see how the London hire is comparable. And my comment had nothing to do with what a coach does once they've been hired- it had to do with an AD being able to make a hire like Bz for the school's marquee sport to begin with. At Wake basketball has been the sport that paid for all the others. Imagine Clemson or Miami or FSU or Va Tech needing a new football coach- what do you think would happen if the AD tried to hire somebody who had just finished last, last, and eighth to head their football program? It wouldn't happen. We can all point to ACC coaches that have turned out to be horrible hires, but show me a coach for a school's marquee sport that looked as bad as Bz both on paper and in terms of charisma and ability to relate to the public before he was hired. You guys might be able to come up with someone I'm not thinking of. But it has to be for an important sport, the sport the school is primarily known for (so no tennis coaches or softball coaches), and it has to be an ACC school. And don't factor in how terrible the coach turned out to be afterwards, this is only about what the coach was looking like before he got the job.

 

[DCDeac]

Fair enough - London was propped up by his history as an assistant at Virginia and the hire was regarded as a good fit, albeit an unproven one. I'm thinking more in line with how short the hiring process was, how unproven he was, how huge a failure he's been, and the controversy that he's being retained. [Redacted] was an NBA head coach and had multiple head coaching stops in D1 college basketball. Many panned the hire but plenty of media supported it beyond the Wake shills.

Was it a bad hire? Yes. But it's not like we promoted Rusty after firing Dino or hired a guy who'd never coached a D1 basketball game.

 

[TBR]

London coached for all of 2 years at an FCS school with another coach's team. He inherited an absolute goldmine of talent from Clawson.

I'm just saying UVA hiring a guy who only had 2 years of FCS coaching experience, successful though they may have been, was extremely controversial and has proven to be a pretty huge failure. They just went 0-8 in year 4. UVA should be good at football - they're going backward. At least we've seen some improvement with Wake, paltry though it may be.

There is at least a narrative with [Redacted] as a rebuilder, plus he was an NBA head coach and took Air Force to the NCAA's which was nuts for them at the time. Also Colorado has been solid since his exit. It was a terrible hire, but let's not go overboard with this "no other AD could make such a hire" nonsense.

At this point I'd be fine if we continue to mirror [Redacted]'s Colorado experience. That would mean we ditch him this year, maybe make an NIT appearance, then win 45+ games with 2 NCAA appearances in 2015 and 2016. Sounds good to me. Nothing we can do about the past.

It was a narrative that Wellman invented. [Redacted] never rebuilt a program. And it wasn't nuts for Air Force to go to the NCAAT either, considering they had gone all of two years earlier.

Again, Colorado hiring [Redacted] was comparable to UVA hiring London. Wake Forest hiring [Redacted] would be comparable to, I don't know, Penn State hiring London now.

 

[wfu22fan]

It ain't toughness! We have no fucking size. A 6'7" center with no help. When Washington plays with Thomas, we have a chance. But Cavenaugh plays below the rim , Moto is only 6'5", and Travis is 6'6". We can't compete will big, physical teams . Period.

 

[cville deac]

The London hire is only controversial in retrospect. You could see the hire coming from a mile away at the time and it was an absolute no-brainer. This board, in particular, loved it some London.

It was nowhere near the WTF the Bz hire was.

Va is pretty much on. More UVA fans questioned the Bennett hire than the London hire because of his stint as DC here and his natty at Richmond. I've always loved the Bennett hire and was optimistic about London because I thought he'd be a good recruiter and bring in good coordinators. Unfortunately, he's yet to bring in a legit ACC QB, and his game management has been woeful.

 

[RChildress107]

Anyone who thinks a team with an injured Ari, Chennault, JTT and all the problem children could have won fifteen games is delusional.

Dino was a horrible game coach. He was a really, really good assistant coach. He wasn't a head coach.

Hell a mediocre coach could have gotten a team with 3 Top 20 picks and another player who has been in the NBA for multiple seasons would have gotten that team to at least the Sweet 16.

And you knew this in April 2010? Cause when Dino was let go the team we thought we would have in november had 10 players, 7 or 8 of which were top 100 recruits.

I think you underestimate the effect playing for someone you want to play for has on a team.

 

[RJKarl]

It's irrelevant whether we knew about the injuries in April 2010. By November 2010 they had taken place.

Are you saying that the injuries wouldn't magically have not happened had Dino not been fired?

You can't get to that number of wins without changing the history of the injuries and of Tony Woods' problem. The hand that was dealt to be played in 2010-11 season included all the injuries and losing Woods.

Given that was the team we had, no one on the planet could have won fifteen games with the roster we had.

Dino couldn't beat Cleveland State with 3 Top 20 draft picks and another player who is still in the NBA. Think of how bad he would have been with a decimated roster.

You can't magically eliminate the injuries and Tony Woods' because you want to do so. It's a totally BS position to take.

 

[DCDeac]

It was a narrative that Wellman invented. [Redacted] never rebuilt a program. And it wasn't nuts for Air Force to go to the NCAAT either, considering they had gone all of two years earlier.

Again, Colorado hiring [Redacted] was comparable to UVA hiring London. Wake Forest hiring [Redacted] would be comparable to, I don't know, Penn State hiring London now.

To be fair, Colorado has done extremely well since he left. Air Force has 2 NCAA appearances since the 60's, and he was the coach for one of them. Those aren't good reasons for Wake to hire the guy - but by all reports Colorado was in pretty good shape when he left so the results weren't all that surprising. That Wake would be awful the following year also wasn't surprising.

Penn State hiring London might be a bit extreme, but I get your point. I phrased the initial London post as a question for a reason - I'm no UVA fan and I remember them hiring a guy with 2 years coaching an FCS team and was surprised by how terrible the program had gotten. I can see how they talked themselves into liking the hire at the time, but thought there might have been more dissonance than there was. Right now there's plenty though.

 

[Strickland33]

It's irrelevant whether we knew about the injuries in April 2010. By November 2010 they had taken place.

Are you saying that the injuries wouldn't magically have not happened had Dino not been fired?

You can't get to that number of wins without changing the history of the injuries and of Tony Woods' problem. The hand that was dealt to be played in 2010-11 season included all the injuries and losing Woods.

Given that was the team we had, no one on the planet could have won fifteen games with the roster we had.

Dino couldn't beat Cleveland State with 3 Top 20 draft picks and another player who is still in the NBA. Think of how bad he would have been with a decimated roster.

You can't magically eliminate the injuries and Tony Woods' because you want to do so. It's a totally BS position to take.

All speculative positions are BS positions to take. Dino was 61-31 and was fired. Buzz is Buzz and he remains our head coach. We know what Buzz has done as coach, and how he performed in what would have been Dino Year Four. Anything else is mere speculation.

BTW, that Cleveland State team wasn't exactly bad, especially from a talent standpoint. We were lightyears better, but c'mon. Why do y'all hate Dino so much?

 

[RJKarl]

The only BS in speculation is that we would have had all the injuries nor the Tony woods situation had Dino stayed. The reality is we had a terrible team that year. Add to that a ton of injuries.

It's not speculation to understand without players you don't win.

Dino is a very, very good assistant coach. There are lots of people like him. They have a long careers and make nice livings. They just aren't suited to be a high D1 men's basketball coach.

It's not "hating" Dino to point out what his abilities are.

 

[VaDeac]

Still trying to figure out what Dino has to do with the fact that Bz has had six going on seven terrible seasons in a row, and we're nowhere near competing for ACC titles and NCAA bids in Year Four.

 

[Ralph Medlin]

Hot fucking doughnuts now...Stick to raking leaves..I'm about as sick of Collins as I am of Bz...Peter Principle in action

 

[TBR]

To be fair, Colorado has done extremely well since he left. Air Force has 2 NCAA appearances since the 60's, and he was the coach for one of them. Those aren't good reasons for Wake to hire the guy - but by all reports Colorado was in pretty good shape when he left so the results weren't all that surprising. That Wake would be awful the following year also wasn't surprising.

Penn State hiring London might be a bit extreme, but I get your point. I phrased the initial London post as a question for a reason - I'm no UVA fan and I remember them hiring a guy with 2 years coaching an FCS team and was surprised by how terrible the program had gotten. I can see how they talked themselves into liking the hire at the time, but thought there might have been more dissonance than there was. Right now there's plenty though.

That Air Force went to the NCAAT two years prior to [Redacted]'s trip is far more relevant than that it only went one other time in the 30 years prior to that. I'm fairly confident in saying that [Redacted] inherited a better situation than any Air Force head coach ever. That he has the best record of any Air Force head coach ever isn't particularly surprising or even impressive given that he didn't actually win anything worthwhile while there. And he didn't build squat either.

Colorado was in decent shape when [Redacted] left, but they went to the NIT that first year and then Boyle basically had to rebuild when Burks left. [Redacted] got lucky with Burks.

 

[DCDeac]

That Air Force went to the NCAAT two years prior to [Redacted]'s trip is far more relevant than that it only went one other time in the 30 years prior to that. I'm fairly confident in saying that [Redacted] inherited a better situation than any Air Force head coach ever. That he has the best record of any Air Force head coach ever isn't particularly surprising or even impressive given that he didn't actually win anything worthwhile while there. And he didn't build squat either.

Colorado was in decent shape when [Redacted] left, but they went to the NIT that first year and then Boyle basically had to rebuild when Burks left. [Redacted] got lucky with Burks.

I'll preface it by saying I want [Redacted] gone, but c'mon. You can't give him zero credit for Air Force because he inherited players and zero credit for Colorado for what they did after he left. Colorado won 9 games, and only 1 conference game, in 08/09. He left after 09/10, then in the following two years Boyle won 48 games and 19 conference games. That's better than "decent" shape. Roberson, Dufault, Burks, and Higgins were all excellent players, even if Burks and Higgins only had 1 more year. Roberson and Dufault were the top 2 reasons Boyle has his one NCAA win.

 

[Milhouse]

I am so surprised at how wrong dcdeac is. he seems like an intelligent guy.

 

[TBR]

I'll preface it by saying I want [Redacted] gone, but c'mon. You can't give him zero credit for Air Force because he inherited players and zero credit for Colorado for what they did after he left. Colorado won 9 games, and only 1 conference game, in 08/09. He left after 09/10, then in the following two years Boyle won 48 games and 19 conference games. That's better than "decent" shape. Roberson, Dufault, Burks, and Higgins were all excellent players, even if Burks and Higgins only had 1 more year. Roberson and Dufault were the top 2 reasons Boyle has his one NCAA win.

[Redacted] did not recruit Roberson. Higgins graduated the same year Burks left. So, what was your point again?

[Redacted] did a good job of coaching the team he inherited at Air Force, but it wasn't some awesome accomplishment that he went to the NCAAT, and he definitely didn't build anything there. They really should have gone twice, but his second team fell apart at the end of the season and fell off the bubble.

[Redacted] left Colorado in much better shape than he found it, but Boyle gets the bulk of the credit for what they've done since that first year. [Redacted] had them on the same trajectory he had us: mediocrity. [Redacted] left Air Force in much worse shape than he found it.

 

[DCDeac]

I get that fans are so infuriated with Wellman and [Redacted] that they can't think straight. Hope we get a great new coach next year that can fire up the fan base and recruit at an ACC level.

Doesn't mean you have to ignore reality. Boyle should have made the NCAA's with Burks and Higgins. And the next year when he did make it, two of his best players were [Redacted] guys. It's not rocket science.

If Boyle year 1 was our year 4 with [Redacted], they went 19-12, (8-8 in conference) during the regular season. They've gone 59-26 since then with 2 NCAA tourneys and they just beat Kansas. I assume we'd be ok with that, especially with a new coach starting next year.

Ah, right, I forgot. The program has been "set back a decade" and Wellman is a total moron (who just hired Clawson) and [Redacted] is the anti-Christ. Carry on.

 

[DCDeac]

[Redacted] did not recruit Roberson. Higgins graduated the same year Burks left. So, what was your point again?

[Redacted] did a good job of coaching the team he inherited at Air Force, but it wasn't some awesome accomplishment that he went to the NCAAT, and he definitely didn't build anything there. They really should have gone twice, but his second team fell apart at the end of the season and fell off the bubble.

[Redacted] left Colorado in much better shape than he found it, but Boyle gets the bulk of the credit for what they've done since that first year. [Redacted] had them on the same trajectory he had us: mediocrity. [Redacted] left Air Force in much worse shape than he found it.

Ah, now [Redacted] didn't recruit Roberson. This is fun.

"With the improvements, the Buffs’ recruiting has been at its best (No. 29 in 2012 according to Rivals.com), signing NBA-caliber players like Alec Burks (No. 12 pick for the Jazz in 2011) and Andre Roberson (projected late first-round NBA draft pick). [Redacted] recruited both players, with Roberson being his last as the Colorado coach.

“When I was leaving (Roberson) and his dad in San Antonio, I got the call from Wake Forest,” he said as he left CU after the 2009-10 season.

Now, he says watching the success of the state’s teams is “bittersweet” for him.

“I was so happy to see guys like Nate Tomlinson and Austin Dufault get that (Pac-12) championship last year,” he says. “It is tough sometimes not to be a part of it anymore, though.”

 

[OldGoldBeard]

We've had this argument before, and have extensively vetted the issue. You are wrong. [Redacted] had at most minimal contact with Roberson; it was Boyle who got him to Colorado. I suggest you drop the issue and move on.