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Official 2018-19 NBA Season Thread - NBA Finals Raptors Win #WeTheNorth

jaybone said:
Doubling down. Interesting. Trump-esque.

"Correct people" is an awkward way to describe oneself. You have a point to make, just making it very rudely/badly. First, it is not "ludicrous" to compare top 50 NBA players all time. And that is what CP3 is. There really is no argument. You can try, however, counterpoints will include essentially all the sports websites that currently exist: ESPN, the Athletic, Fox, Bleacher Report, etc... That is a steep hill to climb. You are either a total quack or some sports version of Charles Darwin. It does sound like you are trying to argue that the world is flat and more a quack than Darin.

A better way to argue this rather than belittling standard logical thinking is the following:

Tim Duncan is a top 10 NBA player all time.
CP3 is a top 50 player all time and potentially creeping up the list.
Karl Malone and Charles Barkley are top 25 players all time - quasi "better" than CP3 but not by much statistically or otherwise.

Career playoff stats:
Malone - 193 games, 46% shooting 24.5/10.5/3 (3 NBA finals, all losses mostly thanks to Jordan)
Barkley - 123 games, 51% shooting 23/13/4 (1 NBA finals, lost in 4 games)
CP3 - 102 games (so far), 48% shooting 21/5/8.5 (no NBA finals to date)

CP3 has an opportunity to craft a really intriguing final 4 seasons, better than GPs. First, he has to get in better shape IMO. Second, he has to recommit himself to being a leader and mentor to teammates - not just AAU type kids.
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Paul is what he is. He isn’t creeping up any list at this point. He’s a borderline top 50 player, and that’s not a slight. He’s in the Dwight Howard class of players.
 
JManslow said:
Paul is what he is. He isn’t creeping up any list at this point. He’s a borderline top 50 player, and that’s not a slight. He’s in the Dwight Howard class of players.
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oooof, that's a poor take
 
jaybone said:
Yes, I do think there are people who regretted or hated playing with Jordan. Me personally, I would have loved to have Steve Kerr's game and play alongside Jordan. But I would have been annoyed with him if I'm shooting 45% from 3 and he either looks me off and clanks a 3 or passes to me and I miss it and states publicly that the only reason I have a job is to hit that shot - the inference being that if I can't hit, I should be cut/traded. Everyone misses shots. Michael Jordan isn't the only Bull allowed to miss big shots. He sucked as a teammate and he sucks as a GM. I mean the Sacramento Kings with Vlade Divac in charge with their owner is currently in better hands than Charlotte.

I will admit it is an interesting question. Jordan is so much better than the 2nd best player playing in the league 25 years ago, that yes, you allow him to be a dick to teammates, but Jordan is now challenged by Lebron as the GOAT and Lebron is leaps and bounds a better teammate so it is possible to be the GOAT and not a dick to teammates. Not saying Lebron is the BEST teammate of all time, he's just not Jordan-level dickish.
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So many feelings in this post. I know one feeling Jordan’s teammates didn’t have. Getting to the Finals only to get stomped.
 
PhDeac said:
So many feelings in this post. I know one feeling Jordan’s teammates didn’t have. Getting to the Finals only to get stomped.
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True. He earned the right to be an asshole. And he cashed in that chip.

His HOF acceptance speech is perhaps the WOAT.
 
The MVP argument against Paul is ridiculous too. Paul was the MVP the season Kobe got the lifetime achievement award.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/21807-Why-Kobe-Bryant-Should-Give-the-MVP-to-Chris-Paul-

His so small amount of turnovers for how much he handled the bar has never really been seen before. I mean he got a team with Desmond Mason as their third best player to 1 game behind the Lakers for the 1 seed that season. That's the only thing that kept him from the MVP, being one game behind.

Edited: Shit Desmond Mason wasn't on that team. Roster, sorted by PPG

David West
Chris Paul
Peja Stojakovic
Tyson Chandler
Morris Peterson
Bonzi Wells
Jannero Pargo
Rasual Butler
Ryan Bowen
Melvin Ely

Woof. Gotten taken out by the Spurs in 7.
 
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Honestly, I loved Paul on those Hornets teams. That was the most likable that he was during his entire NBA career. Since then he’s been a front runner that hasn’t produced. I could see my respect for his game going up again if he dragged OKC to the playoffs.
 
How was he a frontrunner in LA? Dude joined a team coached by Vinny Del Negro and brought a moribund franchise, probably the worst in the history of sports at that point, back to life. DJ probably owes CP his career and we have all seen how good Blake Griffin is on his own in Detroit.

I understand that it's fun to pretend like CP sucks, but it really makes you look like an idiot (or just a Carolina fan)...
 
JManslow said:
Sorry you get triggered by correct people. It’s ludicrous to compare Paul to Malone or Barkley. Both of them put up better stats and went deeper in the playoffs and are more accomplished than Paul. It’s not a discussion.
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i get triggered by stupid people. so congrats.
 
Strickland33 said:
How was he a frontrunner in LA? Dude joined a team coached by Vinny Del Negro and brought a moribund franchise, probably the worst in the history of sports at that point, back to life. DJ probably owes CP his career and we have all seen how good Blake Griffin is on his own in Detroit.

I understand that it's fun to pretend like CP sucks, but it really makes you look like an idiot (or just a Carolina fan)...
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...after David Stern inexplicably stopped him from going to the Lakers.
 
Strickland33 said:
How was he a frontrunner in LA? Dude joined a team coached by Vinny Del Negro and brought a moribund franchise, probably the worst in the history of sports at that point, back to life. DJ probably owes CP his career and we have all seen how good Blake Griffin is on his own in Detroit.

I understand that it's fun to pretend like CP sucks, but it really makes you look like an idiot (or just a Carolina fan)...
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Seems like Blake had a great year last year? Best TS% in his career, shot a ton more threes and free throws than his average season, passed and assisted better, third best VORP year in his career. Big difference is in his role, since they have Drummond he's not banging in the paint, he's hanging around the perimeter a lot more and creating for himself, so his rebound rate went down. Unless I'm missing something, I feel like Blake had a great year.
 
You’re not, Blake Griffin was great on his own. Playing with Paul didn’t hurt obviously but it’s not like he’s just a dunker.
 
Clippers were the 13th seed in the West the year before CP3 and hadn't made the playoffs in 6 years. After getting CP3, they climbed to the 5th seed the first year with him. The Clippers were remarkably consistent over the next six years, finished between 3rd and 5th seed for the entirety of CP3's tenure in LaLa land.

Pistons have been a borderline 8th seed team before Blake Griffin and that remains the same with him. Sort of makes sense as Tobias Harris and he provide similar production.
 
https://www.nbcsports.com/philadelp...lopment-shooter-can-tell-us-about-ben-simmons

Al Horford hasn’t always been good at everything.

As a 33-year-old with 12 seasons of NBA experience and five All-Star appearances, Horford is skilled in most aspects of the game. Interior defense? He’s excellent at it and was named to the NBA All-Defensive Second Team in 2017-18. Passing? The big man averaged 4.6 assists per game in his three seasons with the Celtics. Setting good screens, marshalling the defense and generally making smart, winning plays? It’s his trademark.

But it took a while before Horford added outside shooting to his long list of tools. Looking back at the early history of Horford’s career, his stats give you no indication that he’d eventually be a “stretch five” type of player, someone who’s shot 37.1 percent from three-point range on 927 attempts over the last four years.

He made no three-point shots in his three college seasons at Florida and was 0 for 6 from long range in his first two NBA seasons. Horford was named to his first All-Star Game in 2009-10, a season in which he made his one and only three-point shot, and he hit 9 of 22 over the next four years. He took a small step forward in 2014-15 for the 60-win Atlanta Hawks, converting 11 of 36 threes.

It wasn’t until the 2015-16 season, at 29 years old, when Horford started to let it fly with regularity, attempting 256 threes — 220 more than the season prior — and making 88.

Ben Simmons, like Horford, had no three-point makes in his first two professional seasons. According to Tobias Harris — a player who also has improved remarkably as a shooter over his career — Simmons was knocking them down from the perimeter during a recent workout in Los Angeles.

… He's in the gym religiously every day — grinding, getting better," Harris said at a press conference Friday. "He's in great shape. Everyone was trying to figure out why I was guarding him at the three-point line. It was really because he hit two of them. I dared him to hit two of them and he hit two in a row — that's why I was there. He's made big improvements on his game. His jump shot is looking really good. He has confidence to shoot it. I just kept telling him there, even in these workouts when you’re playing, have the confidence to shoot them and don't get discouraged when you miss …

The Sixers have committed $170 million to Simmons over the next five years in spite of his lack of a reliable shot and because, as was the case with Horford, he didn’t need one to be a deserving All-Star. Horford’s development as a jump shooter is unique, but it helps provides context for Simmons’ situation.

Perhaps the most important takeaway is that there’s no shared path — jump shots don’t all evolve at the same pace. Improvement is contingent on factors like fixing flawed form, natural touch and, as Harris alluded to, the confidence to take jumpers in games and the go-ahead to do so from teammates and coaches.

It’s also not blindly optimistic to review Horford’s past, consider Simmons’ future and conclude that the 22-year-old All-Star is likely only going to get better as a shooter. After hitting 25 of 99 shots from 10 feet and out last season (25.3 percent), it would be very surprising to see Simmons regress.

It would be stunning if Simmons followed Horford’s trajectory, too. You’d imagine his form will have to undergo significant remediation before he’s a good three-point shooter — players with flared elbows and inconsistent mechanics don’t typically fit that description.

However, two seasons is far too small of a sample size to judge Simmons’ shot a lost cause.

As we noted on the night he agreed to join the Sixers, Horford shared that same opinion a little over a year ago.

“He’s already difficult to guard,” Horford told NBC Sports Philadelphia during the Sixers’ 2018 playoff series against the Celtics. “Like all players, we all make progressions. When I came in the league, I wasn’t shooting much outside the paint. And over the years, I’ve expanded my game — you can say that about a lot of guys. And I feel like with him, it’ll just be another weapon in his arsenal, that he will continue to develop that [jumper].”

His perspective is one worth listening to.
 
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