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In 1997-98 (age 32 season), Pippen averaged 19.1 ppg, 5.8 apg, 5.2 rpg, 1.8 spg, and 2.5 topg with an ORTG of 112. The very next season in Houston, he averaged 14.5 ppg, 5.9 apg, 6.5 rpg, 2.0 spg, and 3.2 topg with an ORTG of 104. Maybe his scoring stats were inflated instead of depressed by playing with Jordan.

His usage rate in the final four championship years held steady between 24.4 and 24.6%. The two years Jordan was out, it was 27.1 and 26.3%. In 1993-94, he did take about one extra shot per game at 17.8 FGA. In 1995, it was at 16.7, which was identical to 1997 and in line with other years. The only championship year in which he took fewer than 15.8 shots per game was 1991.
 
JuiceCrewAllStar said:
I do think the league overall is better now than when Jordan played, especially the 90s NBA

it's really hard to compare across eras, and I'm a big LeBron fan

but I think Jordan edges out due to scoring (especially playoff scoring), much lower turnover rate, career defense (LeBron probably had higher defensive peak), and individual awards and championships

LeBron is the better passer, teammate, and rebounder; he's probably a smarter team player than MJ too; he gets credit for longevity and durability

it's close, but I give the nod to MJ


I'm probably one of the few people who enjoy the MJ-LeBron argument and have changed my mind a few times over the years
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Sorry, I missed this in the barrage of Biff and PGDeac nonsense.

I agree with you on Jordan's advantages, though I kind of want to look at the overall defensive quality of the Jordan teams vs. LeBron's teams. Something that stood out in episode 2 of the doc is just how insanely good and complementary Jordan and Pippen were on defense. Outside of his time in Miami and this year on the Lakers, LeBron has played alongside of some absolutely pathetic perimeter defenders. I'll do some digging later into the stats, but I do think context matters here.

I'll give you that Jordan is without a doubt the most talented offensive player of all time; I give LeBron the edge not only for the stats argument but also because he's the most versatile player of all time and has been key in the NBA's resurgence after its post-Jordan death.
 
Jordan has a DPOY and is 9-time 1st team all-defense

Lebron has no DPOYs and is 5-time 1st team all-defense

LeBron has not guarded the best player on the other team for a long time -- he shut down D-Rose his MVP year and played Steph really tough in 2016, but is mostly matched up on a weaker guy and playing help D; he's probably the best help defender of all-time excluding some rim-protecting centers

but Jordan's on-the-ball D was superior and he's probably the overall better defender across their respective careers
 
BTW, Russell was 5-time NBA MVP, won 11 titles, and they named the NBA Finals MVP Award after him.

Also won two NCAA titles and was NCAAT MOP.

Won two NBA titles as a player-coach, just for fun.
 
Strickland33 said:
This is fair, though I will point out that Jerry Sloan, despite being an irredeemable jackass, was also a top-shelf coach.

I just think some folks on here are underestimating how essential Pippen was to Jordan. I don't mean to suggest that the guys y'all brought up aren't also great. Pippen was a really fucking good basketball player, though, and neither Jordan nor Pippen won a championship without each other.
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So is your argument is that Jordan is overrated because he won six championships with another really good player?

Or is your argument that Jordan is overrated because he couldn't carry Gene Banks and Dave Corzine to a championship in his second full season in the league?

POI: I never heard anybody argue that Pippen was the 2nd best player in the 90s until someone (Phil, I think) mentioned it in The Last Dance. He was criminally underrated (and underpaid) throughout his career, but it's perfectly fair to say he's a top 10 90s player.
 
PhDeac said:
So is your argument is that Jordan is overrated because he won with another really good player?
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Where am I saying that Jordan is overrated? He's my #2 of all time. Of every player to ever play the game of basketball. You're calling me a contrarian for saying that LeBron is #1 of all time. You're still welcome to make an argument or provide some evidence at some point.
 
Let the record show that Wade and Bosh are obviously pure trash.
 
Strickland33 said:
Where am I saying that Jordan is overrated? He's my #2 of all time. Of every player to ever play the game of basketball. You're calling me a contrarian for saying that LeBron is #1 of all time. You're still welcome to make an argument or provide some evidence at some point.
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Jordan is almost universally recognized as not only the #1 basketball player of all time, but one of the greatest athletes in the history of the world. If you're arguing Jordan is #2, you're arguing that Jordan is overrated.

The argument isn't Jordan vs. Lebron. The argument is Jordan vs. Pele.
 
JuiceCrewAllStar said:
Jordan has a DPOY and is 9-time 1st team all-defense

Lebron has no DPOYs and is 5-time 1st team all-defense

LeBron has not guarded the best player on the other team for a long time -- he shut down D-Rose his MVP year and played Steph really tough in 2016, but is mostly matched up on a weaker guy and playing help D; he's probably the best help defender of all-time excluding some rim-protecting centers

but Jordan's on-the-ball D was superior and he's probably the overall better defender across their respective careers
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This is fair. I'll concede the point. Jordan is not the GOAT defender by any stretch, but he's a better career defender than LeBron.
 
PhDeac said:
Honestly, diving into Strick’s posts has solidified the case that he’s just being contrarian for the sake of getting into arguments.
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BiffTannen said:
Let the record show that Wade and Bosh are obviously pure trash.
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PhDeac said:
Jordan is almost universally recognized as not only the #1 basketball player of all time, but one of the greatest athletes in the history of the world. If you're arguing Jordan is #2, you're arguing that Jordan is overrated.
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are you and biff male menopausal today or something?
 
It seems dumb to attempt to diminish Jordan for playing with Pippen when Lebron won 2 of his 3 with Wade (not to mention Bosh). Pippen and Wade would probably fall pretty close to one another on all-time player ranking lists. Both are probably somewhere in the 20-30 range, and I’d rank Wade a little higher.
 
Strick on any thread nowadays.

 
deac29 said:
It seems dumb to attempt to diminish Jordan for playing with Pippen when Lebron won 2 of his 3 with Wade (not to mention Bosh). Pippen and Wade would probably fall pretty close to one another on all-time player ranking lists. Both are probably somewhere in the 20-30 range, and I’d rank Wade a little higher.
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Again, we're debating whether Jordan is the #1 or #2 in his sport of all time.

"Diminishing" and "underrating" are weird verbs for that debate.

I agree with you about Pippen and Wade. It's a shame that we didn't get to see more of LeBron and DWade together.
 
deac29 said:
It seems dumb to attempt to diminish Jordan for playing with Pippen when Lebron won 2 of his 3 with Wade (not to mention Bosh). Pippen and Wade would probably fall pretty close to one another on all-time player ranking lists. Both are probably somewhere in the 20-30 range, and I’d rank Wade a little higher.
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MJ never took teams as weak as Lebron did to the finals. Hell, he never beat the Pistons until they got old.

The reality is the Bulls aren't close to being the best team ever. They couldn't beat the Pistons for a few years and would have gotten smoked by the Sixers, Lakers and Celtics of the early 80s as well as the 66-67 Sixers and probably a couple of other teams. They never even beat a team as good the Spurs for a title.
 
i think kareem's the second best player of all time
 
My own view is fairly contradictory. I think Jordan is the GOAT (based upon whatever murky metrics I use to measure it), but I think LBJ is a better basketball player.


Jordan was unreal. As the doc is starting to demonstrate, he was also psychotically competitive. And competitive in a way that LBJ is not. That is at least part of the reason he was 6-0 compared to LBJ's 3-6. Having watched both of their primes, Jordan had control of the game in a way LBJ did not. Which is amazing, given how much control LBJ generally has over the game. Jordan is the greatest winner in NBA history, nudging out Russell due to the quality of the league during their respective runs.

On the other hand, there is just not much anybody in the history of basketball can do with a 6'8, 265lb PG/WF who has the ball skills and athleticism of LBJ. I can't imagine a player who could be him consistently in a game of 1 on 1, including MJ. He can do more things at an elite level than anybody who has ever picked up a ball.
 
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