Official 2022-23 NBA Offseason - Aces win WNBA Finals; Preseason; NBA Fantasy League last call

MHBDemon · Jul 11, 2023

God i love that meme.

PhDeac · Jul 11, 2023

That one is perfect.

That’s a nice list of good young players, a long list for just six teams. We’ll see where Bol ends up and Garuba was in that pupu platter for Patty Mills.

Without looking at the stats, my top 3 are LaMelo, Sengun, and Simons.

deaconson · Jul 11, 2023

Strickland33 said:
Like after he gets his masters ?

The joke was about finishing.

buckets · Jul 11, 2023

PhDeac said:
That one is perfect.

That’s a nice list of good young players, a long list for just six teams. We’ll see where Bol ends up and Garuba was in that pupu platter for Patty Mills.

Without looking at the stats, my top 3 are LaMelo, Sengun, and Simons.

i was surprised cunningham was so low

i assume it's because his 3pt% has been awful in the nba and he shoots a lot

buckets · Jul 11, 2023

and he only played 12 games last season

JuiceCrewAllStar · Jul 11, 2023

VORP list doesn't match with the eye test in a few spots

Banchero is -- or is gonna be -- better than most of that list but he's bottom third

buckets · Jul 11, 2023

JuiceCrewAllStar said:
VORP list doesn't match with the eye test in a few spots

Banchero is -- or is gonna be -- better than most of that list but he's bottom third

i agree

i think he was fairly inefficient last season, but should get better as he matures and gets better teammates

PhDeac · Jul 11, 2023

Banchero shot 1-33 from deep in Feb but finished the year 24-62 (39%).

JuiceCrewAllStar · Jul 11, 2023

i also bet i only watched like a combined 60 minutes of those six teams last season, so I don't have good eye test data either

Dali Llama · Jul 11, 2023

Yeah, jeez, that list is quite the damning argument against VORP. Cole Anthony 3rd? Paolo that far down and below Bol Bol? Cade last? What are we even doing here.

deac29 · Jul 11, 2023

Is that cumulative VORP? If so, it’s useless comparing guys who have played 3+ seasons to guys who have played 1 season. Should use /36.

AJMorgan · Jul 11, 2023

buckets said:
Based on VORP - it would be:

Sengun
LaMelo
Cole Anthony
Wendell Carter
Kevin Porter
Franz Wagner
Fultz
Kenyon Martin Jr.
Vassell
Jalen Duren
Tre Jones
Anfernee Simons
Bol Bol
PJ Washington
Mark Williams
Bagley
Paolo
Bassey
Suggs
Garuba
Cunningham

Where did you get this list from? It's missing Jalen Green, Jabari Smith, Tari Eason, Tyty and Josh Christopher from the Rockets and I don't know enough about the other teams to comment but it wouldn't surprise me if some of those teams are missing guys too

PhDeac · Jul 11, 2023

Those guys have the same or lower VORP than Cunningham (0.1).

AJMorgan · Jul 11, 2023

PhDeac said:
Those guys have the same or lower VORP than Cunningham (0.1).

I refuse to believe Usman Garuba had the third highest VORP of any of our young guys last season and if he did I'm never taking that stat seriously again. He averaged 10 minutes, 3 points and 4 rebounds last year. He literally was the "RP" part of VORP.

PhDeac · Jul 11, 2023

Thus the problem with VORP. But Garuba has a higher PER than Jabari Smith Jr too.

buckets · Jul 11, 2023

I manually sorted by VORP from basketball reference

other measurements seem a little whacky

here is by PER:

Rk	Player	Pos	Age	Tm	PER	WS/48	VORP▼
366	Stanley Umude	SG	23	DET	65.6	0.626	0
188	Mark Williams	C	21	CHO	19.8	0.163	0.4
62	Alperen Şengün	C	20	HOU	19.7	0.115	1.9
194	Charles Bassey	C	22	SAS	18.8	0.122	0.3
306	Darius Days	SF	23	HOU	18.3	0.156	0
84	LaMelo Ball	PG	21	CHO	17.9	0.068	1.4
91	Wendell Carter Jr.	C	23	ORL	17.3	0.13	1.3
167	Jalen Duren	C	19	DET	17.3	0.129	0.5
192	Marvin Bagley III	C	23	DET	17.2	0.095	0.3
100	Markelle Fultz	PG	24	ORL	16.6	0.1	1.2
96	Kevin Porter Jr.	PG	22	HOU	16.2	0.068	1.3
90	Cole Anthony	PG	22	ORL	16	0.116	1.3
168	Tre Jones	PG	23	SAS	16	0.082	0.5
97	Franz Wagner	SF	21	ORL	15.9	0.099	1.3
255	Hamidou Diallo	SF	24	DET	15.7	0.063	0.1
152	Devin Vassell	SG	22	SAS	15.5	0.051	0.7
373	Jeenathan Williams	SG	23	POR	15.5	0.12	0
148	Kenyon Martin Jr.	SF	22	HOU	15.4	0.103	0.7
267	Keldon Johnson	SF	23	SAS	15.3	0.03	0.1
256	Tari Eason	PF	21	HOU	15.2	0.07	0.1
193	Paolo Banchero	PF	20	ORL	14.9	0.047	0.3
172	Anfernee Simons	SG	23	POR	14.8	0.054	0.5
318	Jalen Green	SG	20	HOU	14.5	0.034	0
177	Bol Bol	PF	23	ORL	14.4	0.072	0.4
354	Jay Scrubb	SG	22	ORL	14.2	0.083	0
253	Cade Cunningham	PG	21	DET	14	-0.018	0.1
287	Trendon Watford	PF	22	POR	13.6	0.084	0.1
362	Isaiah Stewart	C	21	DET	13.1	0.068	0
187	P.J. Washington	PF	24	CHO	12.9	0.052	0.4
227	Usman Garuba	C	20	HOU	12.9	0.091	0.2
219	Jalen Suggs	SG	21	ORL	12.5	0.053	0.3
472	Dominick Barlow	PF	19	SAS	12.4	0.082	-0.3
407	Théo Maledon	PG	21	CHO	11.6	0.047	-0.1
478	Kai Jones	C	22	CHO	10.8	0.062	-0.3
481	Nassir Little	SF	22	POR	10.2	0.032	-0.3
485	Isaiah Roby	PF	24	SAS	9.3	-0.011	-0.3
276	Chuma Okeke	SF	24	ORL	9.1	0.061	0.1
496	Keon Johnson	SG	20	POR	9	-0.057	-0.4
405	Isaiah Livers	PF	24	DET	8.4	0.041	-0.1
460	Jared Rhoden	SG	23	DET	6.5	0.027	-0.2
495	Caleb Houstan	SF	20	ORL	6.2	0.039	-0.4
421	Joshua Primo	SG	20	SAS	6.1	-0.073	-0.1
438	Greg Brown III	PF	21	POR	5.8	-0.074	-0.2
439	John Butler	C	20	POR	5.7	0.001	-0.2
392	Jordan Hall	SF	21	SAS	5.5	-0.077	-0.1
323	Trevor Hudgins	PG	23	HOU	4.2	-0.035	0
457	Justin Minaya	SF	23	POR	4	-0.067	-0.2
436	Buddy Boeheim	SF	23	DET	0.5	-0.091	-0.2

buckets · Jul 11, 2023

by Win Shares per 48 minutes

Rk	Player	Pos	Age	Tm	PER	WS/48	VORP▼
366	Stanley Umude	SG	23	DET	65.6	0.626	0
188	Mark Williams	C	21	CHO	19.8	0.163	0.4
306	Darius Days	SF	23	HOU	18.3	0.156	0
91	Wendell Carter Jr.	C	23	ORL	17.3	0.13	1.3
167	Jalen Duren	C	19	DET	17.3	0.129	0.5
194	Charles Bassey	C	22	SAS	18.8	0.122	0.3
373	Jeenathan Williams	SG	23	POR	15.5	0.12	0
90	Cole Anthony	PG	22	ORL	16	0.116	1.3
62	Alperen Şengün	C	20	HOU	19.7	0.115	1.9
148	Kenyon Martin Jr.	SF	22	HOU	15.4	0.103	0.7
100	Markelle Fultz	PG	24	ORL	16.6	0.1	1.2
97	Franz Wagner	SF	21	ORL	15.9	0.099	1.3
192	Marvin Bagley III	C	23	DET	17.2	0.095	0.3
227	Usman Garuba	C	20	HOU	12.9	0.091	0.2
287	Trendon Watford	PF	22	POR	13.6	0.084	0.1
354	Jay Scrubb	SG	22	ORL	14.2	0.083	0
168	Tre Jones	PG	23	SAS	16	0.082	0.5
472	Dominick Barlow	PF	19	SAS	12.4	0.082	-0.3
177	Bol Bol	PF	23	ORL	14.4	0.072	0.4
256	Tari Eason	PF	21	HOU	15.2	0.07	0.1
84	LaMelo Ball	PG	21	CHO	17.9	0.068	1.4
96	Kevin Porter Jr.	PG	22	HOU	16.2	0.068	1.3
362	Isaiah Stewart	C	21	DET	13.1	0.068	0
255	Hamidou Diallo	SF	24	DET	15.7	0.063	0.1
478	Kai Jones	C	22	CHO	10.8	0.062	-0.3
276	Chuma Okeke	SF	24	ORL	9.1	0.061	0.1
172	Anfernee Simons	SG	23	POR	14.8	0.054	0.5
219	Jalen Suggs	SG	21	ORL	12.5	0.053	0.3
187	P.J. Washington	PF	24	CHO	12.9	0.052	0.4
152	Devin Vassell	SG	22	SAS	15.5	0.051	0.7
193	Paolo Banchero	PF	20	ORL	14.9	0.047	0.3
407	Théo Maledon	PG	21	CHO	11.6	0.047	-0.1
405	Isaiah Livers	PF	24	DET	8.4	0.041	-0.1
495	Caleb Houstan	SF	20	ORL	6.2	0.039	-0.4
318	Jalen Green	SG	20	HOU	14.5	0.034	0
481	Nassir Little	SF	22	POR	10.2	0.032	-0.3
267	Keldon Johnson	SF	23	SAS	15.3	0.03	0.1
460	Jared Rhoden	SG	23	DET	6.5	0.027	-0.2
439	John Butler	C	20	POR	5.7	0.001	-0.2
485	Isaiah Roby	PF	24	SAS	9.3	-0.011	-0.3
253	Cade Cunningham	PG	21	DET	14	-0.018	0.1
323	Trevor Hudgins	PG	23	HOU	4.2	-0.035	0
496	Keon Johnson	SG	20	POR	9	-0.057	-0.4
457	Justin Minaya	SF	23	POR	4	-0.067	-0.2
421	Joshua Primo	SG	20	SAS	6.1	-0.073	-0.1
438	Greg Brown III	PF	21	POR	5.8	-0.074	-0.2
392	Jordan Hall	SF	21	SAS	5.5	-0.077	-0.1
436	Buddy Boeheim	SF	23	DET	0.5	-0.091	-0.2

AJMorgan · Jul 11, 2023

buckets said:
I manually sorted by VORP from basketball reference

other measurements seem a little whacky

here is by PER:

Player Pos Age PER
Stanley Umude SG
23
65.6
Mark Williams C
21
19.8
Alperen Şengün C
20
19.7
Charles Bassey C
22
18.8
Darius Days SF
23
18.3
LaMelo Ball PG
21
17.9
Jalen Duren C
19
17.3
Marvin Bagley III C
23
17.2
Kevin Porter Jr. PG
22
16.2
Tre Jones PG
23
16
Hamidou Diallo SF
24
15.7
Jeenathan Williams SG
23
15.5
Devin Vassell SG
22
15.5
Kenyon Martin Jr. SF
22
15.4
Keldon Johnson SF
23
15.3
Tari Eason PF
21
15.2
Anfernee Simons SG
23
14.8
Jalen Green SG
20
14.5
Cade Cunningham PG
21
14
Trendon Watford PF
22
13.6
Isaiah Stewart C
21
13.1
Usman Garuba C
20
12.9
P.J. Washington PF
24
12.9
Dominick Barlow PF
19
12.4
Théo Maledon PG
21
11.6
Kai Jones C
22
10.8
Nassir Little SF
22
10.2
Isaiah Roby PF
24
9.3
Keon Johnson SG
20
9
Isaiah Livers PF
24
8.4
Jared Rhoden SG
23
6.5
Joshua Primo SG
20
6.1
Greg Brown III PF
21
5.8
John Butler C
20
5.7
Jordan Hall SF
21
5.5
Trevor Hudgins PG
23
4.2
Justin Minaya SF
23
4
Buddy Boeheim SF
23
0.5

That's fair, also if anyone else has never heard of Stanley Umude like I hadnt, he's played 2 minutes total in his NBA career, attempted 0 field goals and took (and scored) two free throws.

PhDeac · Jul 11, 2023

Looking at these lists, the Rockets and Pistons have a lot of young dudes playing the same positions. And now the Rockets spend a lot of cap space on a starting backcourt to overlap the young backcourt they've been developing the last 2 years.

Umude had a steal and block in those 2 minutes as well. Per 36, that's 0-18 from the field but 36 pts, 18 stls, 18 blks so obviously those advanced stats are justified.

JuiceCrewAllStar · Jul 11, 2023

looks like orlando got left off the last few tables

who the hell is Stanley Umude??

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