The part that especially upsets me with Manchin on climate change legislation, is that he and his family and his generational wealth fucking profit from the status quo of oil and gas and coal. It’s not just his political campaign donors, it’s his own wealth. It’s just completely wrong that a guy who’s personal fortune depends on not doing anything stands in the way of getting anything done to help 6.9999 billion other people. Fuck him.
Ongoing Dem Debacle Thread: Commander will kill us all
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PhDeac
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So what is the theory of change for the Democratic Party?
I think progressives and voters of color need to take over the means of production within the party. That means taking over three parts of the party apparatus: money, organizing, and candidates. I think that could happen by focusing on causes not candidates.
Donate money to specific causes, not specific candidates. Let experts and advocates for those causes decide how to spend the money and when spending should include which candidates.
Democrats support causes year round. Democrats for the most party hate the party and don't like politics enough to campaign for candidates year round because we expect politicians to focus on their jobs. So organize around those causes year round.
Develop candidates from the causes not the party apparatus.
Accomplish these goals and you have candidates with a clear policy agenda centered around those causes. You have candidates who know in order to get money they have clearly articulate how they will accomplish goals held by those causes and act on their promises when it office. If they don't, those causes will generate their own candidates.
This also moves away from the Democratic Party as the primary organizing mechanism. Right now, candidates are a tool of the Democratic Party. We need the Democratic Party to be a tool of the voters.
I think progressives and voters of color need to take over the means of production within the party. That means taking over three parts of the party apparatus: money, organizing, and candidates. I think that could happen by focusing on causes not candidates.
Donate money to specific causes, not specific candidates. Let experts and advocates for those causes decide how to spend the money and when spending should include which candidates.
Democrats support causes year round. Democrats for the most party hate the party and don't like politics enough to campaign for candidates year round because we expect politicians to focus on their jobs. So organize around those causes year round.
Develop candidates from the causes not the party apparatus.
Accomplish these goals and you have candidates with a clear policy agenda centered around those causes. You have candidates who know in order to get money they have clearly articulate how they will accomplish goals held by those causes and act on their promises when it office. If they don't, those causes will generate their own candidates.
This also moves away from the Democratic Party as the primary organizing mechanism. Right now, candidates are a tool of the Democratic Party. We need the Democratic Party to be a tool of the voters.
ChrisL68
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oh my. separating out the belief systems, the far left in this country is terrible at the strategy of amassing power.
The far right grumbles about centrists, but they don't push far right candidates in areas that will hurt the overall power that they have.
The far right grumbles about centrists, but they don't push far right candidates in areas that will hurt the overall power that they have.
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myDeaconmyhand
First man to get a team of horses up Bear Mountain
*grumbles about centrists* you can’t be fucking serious. They run political ads where candidates have a rifle in their hand and talk about hunting RINOS. Do you consider censuring Liz Cheney “grumbling”? Goddamn you’re ridiculous.
myDeaconmyhand
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Ongoing Dem Debacle Thread: Will Smith getting his 15 minutes
Pretending that there is some moderate wing of the GOP comparable in numbers or influence to moderate Dems is blatantly dishonest.
Pretending that there is some moderate wing of the GOP comparable in numbers or influence to moderate Dems is blatantly dishonest.
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ChrisL68
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They actually did the decades of work voting and developing a media ecosystem to get a majority where they can throw their weight around (to the detriment of the country i might add) while leftists whine on social media and can't even self organize effectively.
ChrisL68
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There used to be.
ChrisL68
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Because his ideas to transform the Democratic party are that everybody should agree with his extreme leftist ideology.
myDeaconmyhand
First man to get a team of horses up Bear Mountain
I would settle for you to stop lying that everyone is moderate, and just admit that that the only people you give a shit about are moderate.
Lol, there are no centrist GOP candidates or politicians. None.
deaconson
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This is dishonest. In it's simplist form, his point has always been that movement left has to occur more slowly than some want. He believes he is being practical. It's not that he does not want more progressive policies. He is ok with incremental change.
You disagree. Be bold, if you will. I'm beginning to agree with you. Swing for the fences and be clearly different than the opposition.
It's disingenuous to say he doesnt care about anyone but moderates.
myDeaconmyhand
First man to get a team of horses up Bear Mountain
Ongoing Dem Debacle Thread: Will Smith getting his 15 minutes
“occur more slowly” These subjective rhetorical vagaries like “movement” and “slowly” are only intended to shitcloud the ideological divide between liberalism and leftism. The seeds of Marxism derived from Kant, Hegel, and even Diogenes. Consider the anti-capitalist slavery abolitionists, Anna Louise Strong, Upton Sinclair, Eugene V Debs, Angela Davis, The Black Panthers. How do you define “slowly” in context to an American political movement that began before the Civil War?
Liberalism, middle class prosperity, and the Cold War has destroyed class solidarity, the labor movement, and socialism in America. There is no logical or honest way to describe leftist progress in this country as slow and incremental.
“Ok with incremental change” Incremental change is inevitable, I bet he supports the sun rise and the tides as well. There are good and bad “incremental” changes that wash each other out. Time =/= progress. Incrementalism is nothing more than setting such a long timeline for goals that no one can hold you accountable for them, it’s simply a rhetorical method to avoid responsibility.
“Disingenuous to say he doesn’t care about anyone but moderates” I strongly disagree. He may well have a progressive ideology, but his analysis of power in American politics only respects moderates and completely dismisses everyone else.
“occur more slowly” These subjective rhetorical vagaries like “movement” and “slowly” are only intended to shitcloud the ideological divide between liberalism and leftism. The seeds of Marxism derived from Kant, Hegel, and even Diogenes. Consider the anti-capitalist slavery abolitionists, Anna Louise Strong, Upton Sinclair, Eugene V Debs, Angela Davis, The Black Panthers. How do you define “slowly” in context to an American political movement that began before the Civil War?
Liberalism, middle class prosperity, and the Cold War has destroyed class solidarity, the labor movement, and socialism in America. There is no logical or honest way to describe leftist progress in this country as slow and incremental.
“Ok with incremental change” Incremental change is inevitable, I bet he supports the sun rise and the tides as well. There are good and bad “incremental” changes that wash each other out. Time =/= progress. Incrementalism is nothing more than setting such a long timeline for goals that no one can hold you accountable for them, it’s simply a rhetorical method to avoid responsibility.
“Disingenuous to say he doesn’t care about anyone but moderates” I strongly disagree. He may well have a progressive ideology, but his analysis of power in American politics only respects moderates and completely dismisses everyone else.
Sadly, we are out of time on Climate Change (we were probably out of time 8 years ago). There is no more opportunity for incremental change and the guy standing in the way of the Democratic majority’s already very compromised climate bill is a democrat “moderate” who stands to personally profit from continuing the status quo.
deaconson
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Agreed. I'm only talking about mdmh's war on Chris(mas). It's beyond tiresome and they should both put each other on ignore. And mdmh and I can agree to disagree.
myDeaconmyhand
First man to get a team of horses up Bear Mountain
I appreciate you being tired of me and whoever else going back and forth, but maybe you should consider that there are only like 3 leftists on this board and we should be able to respond to posts like this:
I’m a lot less likely to get into these 1on1 arguments when the rest of you challenge this bullshit yourself instead of letting it slide. I know how desperate everyone is here to get into an argument, that’s why people keep complaining about jhmd and Junebug being absent.
deaconson
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I read the post you reference as the left is not good at amassing power (implication is the right has been very successful at it). Maybe I'm not catching some nuance or context about why that's so awful.
You can argue/respond/call out whatever you disagree with. I'm not content policing in that way. It just doesn't seem productive. It does seem tiresome to get upset. S'all Good Man !
PhDeac
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Ongoing Dem Debacle Thread: Will Smith getting his 15 minutes
Yep. Both of them like to repeat the same argument moderates vs. leftists. It’s not about policy or even tactics, just weird political identity.
It’s fitting that MDMH describes himself as a leftist instead of progressive. He defines himself by his opposition to others instead of his political beliefs. If you’re “left,” you can also carve out space by yourself even as others start to agree with you.
It’s not much better than “moderate” or “centrist” in terms of defining politics in relation to others.
Yep. Both of them like to repeat the same argument moderates vs. leftists. It’s not about policy or even tactics, just weird political identity.
It’s fitting that MDMH describes himself as a leftist instead of progressive. He defines himself by his opposition to others instead of his political beliefs. If you’re “left,” you can also carve out space by yourself even as others start to agree with you.
It’s not much better than “moderate” or “centrist” in terms of defining politics in relation to others.
myDeaconmyhand
First man to get a team of horses up Bear Mountain
To be specific I identify as a Socialist/Communist, but I caucus with leftists and progressives.