Ongoing Dem Debacle Thread: Commander will kill us all
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WakeandBake
Well-known member
Which result is anyone walking away from? The number of children who were fed, clothed, sheltered and received healthcare between 1965 and now?
Is the argument that instead of organizing through government to feed and shelter poor women and children, they should have been banished to shantytowns on the outskirts of cities to forage for scraps of food and and gather cardboard boxes to learn that life is hard when you have no money or education or skills and that you have committed the gravest of economic sins by getting pregnant out of wedlock? Is the argument that this kind of treatment of women and their illegitimate children would open all future girls’ eyes and close their legs and open their books? So you are saying that generation of poor husband-less women in the mid sixties should have been martyred for the benefit of future generations? Fascinating
Is the argument that instead of organizing through government to feed and shelter poor women and children, they should have been banished to shantytowns on the outskirts of cities to forage for scraps of food and and gather cardboard boxes to learn that life is hard when you have no money or education or skills and that you have committed the gravest of economic sins by getting pregnant out of wedlock? Is the argument that this kind of treatment of women and their illegitimate children would open all future girls’ eyes and close their legs and open their books? So you are saying that generation of poor husband-less women in the mid sixties should have been martyred for the benefit of future generations? Fascinating
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WakeandBake
Well-known member
lol but you leave no other option in your binary argument. What does it look like, then? What happens to the poors when the money (incentive to fuck and be lazy, no wait the ‘reward for poor behavior” , in your opinion) is taken away?
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ChrisL68
Riley Skinner
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Which has been done in many states for over 20 years...
ChrisL68
Riley Skinner
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Because Republicans were in charge. But amazingly we haven't seen any massive reductions in illegitimacy or poverty rates in those States
WakeandBake
Well-known member
There are conditions on aid right now, are there not? Very detailed ones we discuss ad nauseum every time you drag every thread back to this. I don’t think anyone is against tweaking the conditions, but you have argued that liberal poverty policy created a cyclical poverty bubble that began in 1965, and that these efforts to feed and clothe and care for poor women and children were at worst a spurious plot to secure a voting bloc, or at best an insincere show of altruism to soothe liberal elitist guilt, or some such.
WakeandBake
Well-known member
Agreed, and my usage was meant to parrot the argument put forth.
Still pretty normative, how about “single parent”. Using illegitimate and non marital presupposes that these births are negative.
The data do not support your hypothesis. But if you say it enough times it becomes true.
ConnorEl
Well-known member
Blue States Practice the Family Values Red States Preach
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As we watch Roy Moore thumping his Bible to defend himself from accusations of child molestation, let me toss out a verbal hand grenade: To some degree, liberals practice the values that conservatives preach.
This is complicated terrain with lots of exceptions, and the recent scandals involving Harvey Weinstein, Louis C.K. and Al Franken underscore that liberals can be skunks as much as anyone else. Yet if one looks at blue and red state populations as a whole, it’s striking that conservatives champion “family values” even as red states have high rates of teenage births, divorce and prostitution. In contrast, people in blue states don’t trumpet these family values but often seem to do a better job living them.
According to the Youth Risk Behavior Survey of 32 states, those with the highest percentage of high school students who say they have had sex are Mississippi, Delaware, West Virginia, Alabama and Arkansas. All but Delaware voted Republican in the last presidential election.
Meanwhile, the five states with the lowest proportion of high school students who have had sex were New York, California, Maryland, Nebraska and Connecticut. All but Nebraska voted Democratic.
When evangelical kids have sex, they’re less likely to use birth control — and that may be a reason (along with lower abortion rates) that red states have high teen birthrates.
Nine of the 10 states with the highest teen birthrates voted Republican in 2016. And nine of the 10 states with the lowest teen birthrates voted Democratic.
“Red regions of the country have higher teen pregnancy rates, more shotgun marriages and lower average ages at marriage and first birth,” Naomi Cahn and June Carbone wrote in their important 2010 book, “Red Families v. Blue Families.”...
...Then there’s adultery and prostitution. One large international survey found that the largest group of customers on Ashley Madison, the dating website for married people, were evangelical Christians. And a major 2013 study found that men in the Houston and Kansas City metro areas were the most likely to call sex ads, while men in San Francisco and Baltimore were the least likely to...
...More broadly, conservative values don’t directly lead to premarital sex or divorce. Rather, statistical analysis suggests that religious conservatives end up divorcing partly because they marry early, are less likely to go to college and are disproportionately poor.
So the deeper problem seems to be the political choices that conservatives make, underinvesting in public education and social services (including contraception). This underinvestment leaves red states poorer and less educated — and thus prone to a fraying of the social fabric.
So let’s drop the wars over family values. Liberals and conservatives alike don’t want kids pregnant at 16, and we almost all seek committed marriages that last. It’s worth noting that Bible-thumping blowhards like Roy Moore don’t help achieve those values, while investments in education and family planning do....
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Quote
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As we watch Roy Moore thumping his Bible to defend himself from accusations of child molestation, let me toss out a verbal hand grenade: To some degree, liberals practice the values that conservatives preach.
This is complicated terrain with lots of exceptions, and the recent scandals involving Harvey Weinstein, Louis C.K. and Al Franken underscore that liberals can be skunks as much as anyone else. Yet if one looks at blue and red state populations as a whole, it’s striking that conservatives champion “family values” even as red states have high rates of teenage births, divorce and prostitution. In contrast, people in blue states don’t trumpet these family values but often seem to do a better job living them.
According to the Youth Risk Behavior Survey of 32 states, those with the highest percentage of high school students who say they have had sex are Mississippi, Delaware, West Virginia, Alabama and Arkansas. All but Delaware voted Republican in the last presidential election.
Meanwhile, the five states with the lowest proportion of high school students who have had sex were New York, California, Maryland, Nebraska and Connecticut. All but Nebraska voted Democratic.
When evangelical kids have sex, they’re less likely to use birth control — and that may be a reason (along with lower abortion rates) that red states have high teen birthrates.
Nine of the 10 states with the highest teen birthrates voted Republican in 2016. And nine of the 10 states with the lowest teen birthrates voted Democratic.
“Red regions of the country have higher teen pregnancy rates, more shotgun marriages and lower average ages at marriage and first birth,” Naomi Cahn and June Carbone wrote in their important 2010 book, “Red Families v. Blue Families.”...
...Then there’s adultery and prostitution. One large international survey found that the largest group of customers on Ashley Madison, the dating website for married people, were evangelical Christians. And a major 2013 study found that men in the Houston and Kansas City metro areas were the most likely to call sex ads, while men in San Francisco and Baltimore were the least likely to...
...More broadly, conservative values don’t directly lead to premarital sex or divorce. Rather, statistical analysis suggests that religious conservatives end up divorcing partly because they marry early, are less likely to go to college and are disproportionately poor.
So the deeper problem seems to be the political choices that conservatives make, underinvesting in public education and social services (including contraception). This underinvestment leaves red states poorer and less educated — and thus prone to a fraying of the social fabric.
So let’s drop the wars over family values. Liberals and conservatives alike don’t want kids pregnant at 16, and we almost all seek committed marriages that last. It’s worth noting that Bible-thumping blowhards like Roy Moore don’t help achieve those values, while investments in education and family planning do....
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vadimivich
Well-known member
They have succeeded tremendously in many other countries.
Please explain how they "fail wherever they are tried" given that context.
Louis Gossett Jr
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Deacfreak07
Ain't played nobody, PAWL!
Has the Republican Party advanced any policies related to poor families over the same period of time? How did those work out?
Deacfreak07
Ain't played nobody, PAWL!
How have those new plants impacted childhood poverty? Care to cite some data to support your argument? Less single parent homes in red states now?
Wakeforest22890
Snowpom
Read a recent article that some pilot programs to assist coal or steel workers in retraining for other jobs aren’t succeeding because the workers aren’t signing up and believe that their industries are coming back.
ConnorEl
Well-known member
And they don’t want to retrain, or move.
myDeaconmyhand
First man to get a team of horses up Bear Mountain
It's a race to the bottom. Conservatives like jhmd think their is some moral gratification in people working like dogs and still being in poverty, vs just being in poverty, and thus a 50k union job with benefits in Michigan becomes a 35k a year unprotected job in South Carolina, where the employee cant take a fucking holiday off, and somehow that's better because if the bullshit factory didn't cut enough wages they would move to China and pay employees 2.50/hr at gun point. Yay capitalism! Your chainsaw is $50 cheaper and its MADE IN AMERICA
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