Ongoing gun violence/injury thread

[ONW]

You don't think less guns in the marketplace, less ammo in the marketplace, more thorough background checks by entities with a profit incentive to get it right, and more focus on proper gun safety and storage wouldn't create a safer gun environment?

This I agree with.

 

[2&2 Slider To Leyritz]

Doesn't that already exist?

No. So long as a criminal isn't illegally carrying it concealed, it doesn't just get forfeited. Currently, I can keep whatever I want in my house, regardless of how I got it. Under my scenario, it would have to be on the national insured registry to be owned.

 

[ONW]

No, because in the insurance scenario the insurance company is acting as a gatekeeper to determine who gets the gun, and they have a profit interest to make sure that nutjobs don't get it. Just like you don't issue a life insurance policy to someone with a checkered health history, you don't issue a gun policy to someone with a checkered criminal or mental health history.

So now we're running background checks correct? And a national gun registry? I'm okay with that.

 

[2&2 Slider To Leyritz]

Of course. That was one of my main original points of having a for-profit insurance company involved.

 

[ONW]

Of course. That was one of my main original points of having a for-profit insurance company involved.

Got it. Now what about the criminals who don't give a fuck about registering a gun or buying insurance?

 

[PhDeac]

Got it. Now what about the criminals who don't give a fuck about registering a gun or buying insurance?

Obamagun insurance subsidies. "If you like your gun, you can keep it."

 

[2&2 Slider To Leyritz]

As I said above, my plan reduces the number of guns and encourages proper storage, which reduces the number of guns in circulation. It also restricts who can buy guns and ammo, so hopefully some people don't get them in the first place. It isn't going to solve the problem of criminals with guns bought on the black market, but it reduces the number of guns they have access to in the long run. Plus, combined with laws for continuing liability for private gun sales, it would hopefully make private sales less frequent.

 

[Deacon923]

yeah, all of which could also be achieved by placing giant taxes on top of gun buying and registration/ownership (excise taxes and fees), as well. pay it into a victims fund. that's just as likely as building an entire industry to provide the same thing.

A lot of legal scholars believe that directly placing big taxes on gun purchases to deter gun ownership would be unconstitutional under the second amendment, but that an insurance scheme might be able to pass constitutional muster. Although probably not with the current makeup of the SCOTUS. That's one of the main arguments for the insurance scheme, it does something about the prevalence of guns without requiring a constitutional amendment.

 

[ONW]

As I said above, my plan reduces the number of guns and encourages proper storage, which reduces the number of guns in circulation. It also restricts who can buy guns and ammo, so hopefully some people don't get them in the first place. It isn't going to solve the problem of criminals with guns bought on the black market, but it reduces the number of guns they have access to in the long run. Plus, combined with laws for continuing liability for private gun sales, it would hopefully make private sales less frequent.

I agree with you here and on the education front, but we already don't give criminals their guns back. And background checks and a national registry are two of the main sticking points that the NRA will never go along with.

 

[2&2 Slider To Leyritz]

Fuck the NRA (and I say that as a gun owner). They tried like hell to prevent Obama from getting elected and it didn't work. If a politician with some balls put forth some of these reasonable common-sense ideas, I'm pretty sure they could get overwhelming public support.

 

[EatLeadCommie]

No, because in the insurance scenario the insurance company is acting as a gatekeeper to determine who gets the gun and where it is stored, and they have a profit interest to make sure that nutjobs don't get it. Just like you don't issue a life insurance policy to someone with a checkered health history, you don't issue a gun policy to someone with a checkered criminal or mental health history.

How is an insurance company going to get access to mental health records or even medical records?

That's the crux of the issue, really. Medical privacy. If there is a way to get over that hump and have one's mental health incorporated into existing background checks, everybody would be on board with that. But the problem is we have laws protecting our medical privacy. Moreover, there are people running around out there who are obviously unhinged but aren't medicated or otherwise officially diagnosed as mentally ill, so how do you account for that?

 

[PhDeac]

How is an insurance company going to get access to mental health records or even medical records?

That's the crux of the issue, really. Medical privacy. If there is a way to get over that hump and have one's mental health incorporated into existing background checks, everybody would be on board with that. But the problem is we have laws protecting our medical privacy. Moreover, there are people running around out there who are obviously unhinged but aren't medicated or otherwise officially diagnosed as mentally ill, so how do you account for that?

Blue Cross Blue Shield Blue Gun?

 

[ImTheCaptain]

How is an insurance company going to get access to mental health records or even medical records?

That's the crux of the issue, really. Medical privacy. If there is a way to get over that hump and have one's mental health incorporated into existing background checks, everybody would be on board with that. But the problem is we have laws protecting our medical privacy. Moreover, there are people running around out there who are obviously unhinged but aren't medicated or otherwise officially diagnosed as mentally ill, so how do you account for that?

oh no worries, b/c of the HUGE PROFITS to be made and the mandate, the magic wand of wishful thinking means the government will give access to carriers to complete the task of insuring the uninsurable. or gun owners/buyers will subject themselves to psychoanalysis voluntarily. either way, not a problem b/c we can trust the Market to figure it out.

 

[ImTheCaptain]

want an example of government mandated insurance for high risk individuals and how it worked out?

nope, not health insurance.

look to the bankrupt and broken flood insurance program. and floods are actually pretty easy to predict and price for, especially compared to voluntary murder

 

[Deacon923]

want an example of government mandated insurance for high risk individuals and how it worked out?

nope, not health insurance.

look to the bankrupt and broken flood insurance program. and floods are actually pretty easy to predict and price for, especially compared to voluntary murder

Flood insurance is bankrupt and broken because it's government SUBSIDIZED, not because it's government mandated.

If government didn't subsidize flood insurance, most of the Outer Banks would be undeveloped because no insurance company in their right mind would insure those houses.

Nobody's talking about mandating gun insurance and then having the government backstop the insurer's losses. The two things are completely different, linked only by the word "insurance".

 

[Deacon923]

How is an insurance company going to get access to mental health records or even medical records?

That's the crux of the issue, really. Medical privacy. If there is a way to get over that hump and have one's mental health incorporated into existing background checks, everybody would be on board with that. But the problem is we have laws protecting our medical privacy. Moreover, there are people running around out there who are obviously unhinged but aren't medicated or otherwise officially diagnosed as mentally ill, so how do you account for that?

why is this problem hard to solve?

1. Pass a law requiring gun insurance to buy a gun.
2. Insurers figure out what they need to underwrite to issue insurance. Mental health will be on the list.
3. If you want your insurance to get your gun, you voluntarily get a clean bill of mental health from a provider and voluntarily release your health history to the insurer.
4. Medical privacy laws are completely circumvented because #3 is completely voluntary.

Will it get 100% of the crazies, of course not. But it would prevent a guy like the Va Tech shooter from walking into a gun shop and walking out 10 minutes later with a gun, no questions asked.

 

[Deacon923]

oh no worries, b/c of the HUGE PROFITS to be made and the mandate, the magic wand of wishful thinking means the government will give access to carriers to complete the task of insuring the uninsurable. or gun owners/buyers will subject themselves to psychoanalysis voluntarily. either way, not a problem b/c we can trust the Market to figure it out.

This is exactly what will happen, actually. You want a gun, voluntarily disclose your health background, including mental health.

 

[ImTheCaptain]

Flood insurance is bankrupt and broken because it's government SUBSIDIZED, not because it's government mandated.

If government didn't subsidize flood insurance, most of the Outer Banks would be undeveloped because no insurance company in their right mind would insure those houses.

Nobody's talking about mandating gun insurance and then having the government backstop the insurer's losses. The two things are completely different, linked only by the word "insurance".

dude, when you create a market for a thing that is actively shunned, there's a market reason for it. the government will have to subsidize this program, either by building the logistics to support it, legislatively and physically, and probably monetarily as well.

there's no reason for insurance marketplace to offer this now, if it's actually a profitable idea. zero. you think that's just b/c they don't want to? But maybe there are Lloyds Associations that do offer it, I don't know, I didnt' delve into it far enough.

I mean this is an industry that will sell life insurance to people with horrible diseases and medical backgrounds.

 

[ONW]

This is exactly what will happen, actually. You want a gun, voluntarily disclose your health background, including mental health.

No it won't. You think people will voluntarily disclose that they are crazy, or a member of the KKK, or what they told their shrink about molesting their sister? They are going to walk around the corner, and buy one at a gun show or a private seller and we're right back to square one.

 

[Deacon923]

dude, when you create a market for a thing that is actively shunned, there's a market reason for it. the government will have to subsidize this program, either by building the logistics to support it, legislatively and physically, and probably monetarily as well.

there's no reason for insurance marketplace to offer this now, if it's actually a profitable idea. zero. you think that's just b/c they don't want to? But maybe there are Lloyds Associations that do offer it, I don't know, I didnt' delve into it far enough.

I mean this is an industry that will sell life insurance to people with horrible diseases and medical backgrounds.

I don't think you are thinking about this carefully enough. The reason there is no market for the insurance now is because it is not mandatory, and 99.99% of all americans, including gun owners, don't see any need for gun insurance. There is no market for it now. The market gets created by the enactment of a statute requiring gun buyers to have insurance, and gun sellers to verify the same.

This is why your comparison to flood insurance is nonsensical. There is no law requiring one to have flood insurance (that I know of). lenders require it, but if you have a paid off house or you build your beach house with cash you are free to go without insurance if you want. But of course that's stupid, because you know that the hurricane is coming one day. So you buy the insurance. The insurance company knows the hurricane is coming too, so without government backstops, the price would be astronomical.

Gun insurance pricing would not be that expensive, because (unlike beach houses and hurricanes) 99.99% of guns won't ever be used to kill someone. The value of gun insurance is not the cost. The value is using the power of the insurance companies to evaluate the mental health of gun owners and provide incentives to gun owners to get safety training and store their guns safely.