Oregon Basketball Rape Case (NWT)

[Deacon923]

Getting a hummer in a bathroom while playing sword fights with two other guys-no thanks.

i read the report and thought to myself, kids these days obviously watch too much porn. Doing something like this with two other dudes never would have occurred to me at that age (or now).

 

[PhDeac]

i read the report and thought to myself, kids these days obviously watch too much porn. Doing something like this with two other dudes never would have occurred to me at that age (or now).

All the more reason to respect Jeff Teague.

 

[dartsndeacs]

You're right, what happened after the first trip in the bathroom shouldn't matter... But it does. In a situation of he-said, she-said, with little or no physical evidence of what went down, you have to rely on all the contextual clues to decide what really happened.

If, after the first trip to the bathroom, she had left the party with her friend, told her friend what happened while being visibly upset, went to the hospital to be checked out and called the police - what would have happened? They would have been arrested and charged and there would have been a good chance of conviction.

Instead, her behavior the rest of the night is not really consistent with someone who just suffered a traumatizing sexual assault at the hands of multiple men. I really want to believe her and don't doubt that she was not happy with what was going on but I am having a hard time understanding her subsequent behavior - and I am not even on a jury where I am required to be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt.

especially blowing the dude the next morning, forgetting to mention it in the initial report and then saying she couldn't remember if she had sex that morning or not, then banging out some other dude a few hours later.

 

[dmcheatw]

Charging when you have little chance of a conviction is a terrible idea for lots of reasons... It would represent a waste of tons of government resources for a long period of time.
All of those resources would be distracted from investigating and prosecuting other cases which might have a greater chance of a conviction. Finally, and possibly most importantly, the victim would be absolutely dragged through the mud and embarassed - her life would be ruined as much as theirs - and all for a not guilty verdict? How many other girls would be convinced to never come forward after witnessing what she went through? The rigors of a trial would be worth it to a victim if there is a pay-off at the end - a conviction - without it? Not really.

and yet cops do it routinely. it's called throwing the book. they do it to strengthen their hand at the bargaining table, and to raise your legal fees (perhaps in the hopes it won't go to trial, since most cases don't). just pointing this out. the best way to get charged with a crime (talkin minor crimes and blue collar crimes here) is simply to irritate a police officer. Both myself and my atty have found that the actual law matters little. Exhibit A: Ex-parte orders. Exhibit B: custody. not trying to argue just to point out how things are.

 

[dmcheatw]

Instead, her behavior the rest of the night is not really consistent with someone who just suffered a traumatizing sexual assault at the hands of multiple men.

some of her actions seem odd yes, but i would be hesitant to say her behavior isn't consistent with someone who has just been raped. are there any people with educations or jobs in this type of field who can weigh in? someone with an MD in this sort of psychology and behavior.

 

[ITK]

some of her actions seem odd yes, but i would be hesitant to say her behavior isn't consistent with someone who has just been raped. are there any people with educations or jobs in this type of field who can weigh in? someone with an MD in this sort of psychology and behavior.

I for one am so glad we have scooter84 and palmab03's expert opinions on how rape victims act.

 

[RChildress107]

Over half of my past girlfriends routinely say no when they really mean yes. you can say no playfully or forcefully. The taped phone conversations sound like guys who don't know they were doing anything wrong, yet they all stopped the second she was crying everyone agreed. Seems as if she could have stopped it by acting out.

It sounds like you wouldn't have known you were doing anything wrong either. I don't know that these guys deserve to sit in jail for the next 15+ years but I do know that they deserve more than just a slap on the wrist, and more importantly they and other young men need to be sent a message that shit like this isn't OK.

 

[dmcheatw]

truth of the matter is i have never known of a girl to willingly submit to 3 dicks at once who wasn't being paid to do so (sloppy seconds is bad enough from the guy PoV). this might not be clear cut rape, idk, but it sure as hell wasn't a 100% consensual thing either.

also, tangentially addressing palma..if your GF or wife says no, you're in a better position to determine what she really means especially with history and clearer context (no alcohol). a casual hook up? you have to treat no as no every time. especially when drugs are involved. so this is apples to oranges to me.

 

[ITK]

Look, I don't know what is going on with this beyond the fact that its disturbing on many levels. But some of the people posting on this thread are approaching this like she's a mentally stable young woman with a good support system. We don't know anything about her and can't make this assumption. Hyper-sexual behavior like this is seen in manic depressives and bipolar disordered people. That could explain the morning after sex. No matter what way I read this case, I can't help but think she was taken advantage of in a mental state where she should not have been making decisions.

 

[Les Grossman]

and yet cops do it routinely. it's called throwing the book. they do it to strengthen their hand at the bargaining table, and to raise your legal fees (perhaps in the hopes it won't go to trial, since most cases don't). just pointing this out. the best way to get charged with a crime (talkin minor crimes and blue collar crimes here) is simply to irritate a police officer. Both myself and my atty have found that the actual law matters little. Exhibit A: Ex-parte orders. Exhibit B: custody. not trying to argue just to point out how things are.

Getting arrested by a cop and charged by a prosecutor are two different things

 

[dmcheatw]

Getting arrested by a cop and charged by a prosecutor are two different things

please explain; i'm not a lawyer like you.\

are you saying i wrote something misleading in that post?

 

[MagicDeac]

truth of the matter is i have never known of a girl to willingly submit to 3 dicks at once who wasn't being paid to do so (sloppy seconds is bad enough from the guy PoV). this might not be clear cut rape, idk, but it sure as hell wasn't a 100% consensual thing either.

also, tangentially addressing palma..if your GF or wife says no, you're in a better position to determine what she really means especially with history and clearer context (no alcohol). a casual hook up? you have to treat no as no every time. especially when drugs are involved. so this is apples to oranges to me.

I think this is a clear case of rape irrespective of your point above. That said, I'm a former prosecutor and I understand why charges arent being brought. But to your point, I have to disagree that no woman would have consented to multiple dudes like that. It happens and it happened at Wake. I never partook, but it was there for the taking.

 

[dmcheatw]

I think this is a clear case of rape irrespective of your point above. That said, I'm a former prosecutor and I understand why charges arent being brought. But to your point, I have to disagree that no woman would have consented to multiple dudes like that. It happens and it happened at Wake. I never partook, but it was there for the taking.

just saying it's unlikely and in my experience i had never known a girl to take more than 2 dicks from acquantances/friends in the same encounter, that's why this is more likely a case of rape than not for me just based on that. but yes i believe you, agree w/u, and also think this is indeed a case of not just rape, but gang-rape.

 

[Les Grossman]

let me know why you think prosecution for a crime you yourself believe happened would be unethical either because of or due to the possibility it might fail. I can't see the logic.

It's unethical because our government should only be filing charges against people they have enough evidence to convict. The ethical duty of a prosecutor is to see that justice is done; not simply get a conviction. Thus, just because he/she may think someone's guilty it is still unethical for them to file charges if they cant prove it.

To start "lowering" that bar only creates more havoc and injustice in the criminal justice system. Not less.

 

[dmcheatw]

ok there's theory, then there's practice. "prosecutors are concerned about ethics" in my experience in practice they want convictions, to the point of advancing absurd arguments, and yes i can give specifics. they may not all be like that, but that's the job description--get convictions.

anyway thanks for answering. your logic surely holds but i disagree with your conclusion in this instance

i do agree lowering the bar is a dangerous thing, yet the bar is already a lot lower than most realize.... except wrt rape and perjury apparrently.

oh and tell that first sentence to beat cops. pro LEO agencies more or less seem to do that, but not on the street meeting that quota.

also, how is "prove" defined? that also jumped out at me. there's a lot of evidence, i imagine when it meets that threshold is in the eyes of the DA.

 

[TheLookout]

All the more reason to respect Jeff Teague.

Please fucking beleeee dat. I ain't tryna smush mushrooms with NO-body.

 

[scooter84]

I for one am so glad we have scooter84 and palmab03's expert opinions on how rape victims act.

Whoa... I wasn't really trying to state with certainty how a rape victim would act - I was trying to think as a juror would since I was mostly discussing the fact that charges were not being brought and whether that was the right decision. Most of the people in a juror pool are also non-experts in the behavior of rape victims. My point was, they will see her behavior as inconsistent with how they would think a rape victim would act - is that more clear?

 

[Biff Tannen]

Even if this was completely consensual, hard to understand why these guys (and apparently so many other guys) willing participate in a gang bang. Can't get much easier than hooking-up at U of Oregon (particularly as a student athlete). Have no idea why anyone would want to mess with his teammate's sloppy seconds. Add-in that all student athletes get the lecture that their schollies can and will be yanked and their future may be ruined in exactly this situation, it escapes me why this scenario seems to repeats itself so often.

Team building exercise?

 

[PhDeac]

Team building exercise?

That's not how I played human knot.

 

[TheTwinAndreBen]

Even if this was completely consensual, hard to understand why these guys (and apparently so many other guys) willing participate in a gang bang. Can't get much easier than hooking-up at U of Oregon (particularly as a student athlete). Have no idea why anyone would want to mess with his teammate's sloppy seconds. Add-in that all student athletes get the lecture that their schollies can and will be yanked and their future may be ruined in exactly this situation, it escapes me why this scenario seems to repeats itself so often.

This type of thing has been going on with big school athletes for a loooong time. I had a couple of friends that were walk-ons at Carolina and they described some (consensual) things to me that they witnessed at parties involving athletes and groupies that scarred my young mind in the late 90s.