• Welcome to OGBoards 10.0, keep in mind that we will be making LOTS of changes to smooth out the experience here and make it as close as possible functionally to the old software, but feel free to drop suggestions or requests in the Tech Support subforum!

Physician-assisted suicide

As my T&E professor said: don't fill online forms out, just go get an attorney - which to Childress' point can be timely and costly. Access is a legitimate issue in this case.
 
Rev, having been through a situation like this with my mother, due to medical science we do have some power. Some meds and procedures can put people in some charge of prolonging life.

I also wonder how much the profit aspect of certain meds or procedures impacts end of life care. There's a movie from the 90s called Critical Care that cynically and sarcastically looks at this factor.
 
RevDeac06 said:
I get that, and am partial to that side as well. Though the Christian theological/ethical side of me questions whether or not we've fooled ourselves into the thinking we have power over things that we, in reality, don't- in this case, death. We like to think that we're in control, and if left unchecked, our fears create idols.
Click to expand...

I think the danger is when we take the fact that we can choose to die at any time (or cause others to die) and extrapolate that to think that we can forestall death until the moment of our choosing.
 
RChildress107 said:
I mean everyone has access to an I.D. if they want one too.

Living Wills can be costly, take time to fill out, would require updating as circumstances or intentions change. I'd also imagine that free online services would be more susceptible to fraud.

Hospital forms don't do you any good if you don't have the mental capacity to sign them when you get to the hospital.

The fear is doctors and family members conspiring to manipulate individuals in a lot of pain. I'm all for giving people a choice in how to live the final days of their life, I just think the autonomy of that choice should be protected at all costs. I don't trust an online living will to offer that protection.
Click to expand...

You do realize these are just blank forms you're supposed to actually print out, fill out, have notarized, and keep in a safe, right? It's not like we're talking about online financial or health care records. And if your terminal stage is something you truly want to help your family avoid confusion about, you do it well in advance.

Doctors or (more likely) family members conspiring can and will happen regardless of what you've done. It's still a greatly diminished risk as opposed to lacking any kind of directive at all.

bcobb: In the hands of morons like Sarah Palin, even the most well-intentioned, public good can be twisted into something fear-mongering and self-serving.
 
It doesn't really address the slippery slope issue with physician assisted suicide though. That argument has to do with determining at what point such assistance becomes acceptable from an ethical standpoint.

Living Wills are helpful in situations where the patient is unconscious or otherwise incoherent. They work well in situations where a person decides ahead of time that they do not want certain life prolonging procedures. They don't work, IMO, in situations where a physician is being asked to bring about a patients death prematurely.

The main argument for physician assisted suicide is that at some point it becomes a rational choice for a person to choose death over living out a life of never-ending suffering. Even setting the ethical issues aside, such a choice is a personal choice that depends on pain tolerance, religious beliefs, general outlook, etc. It's a decision that really needs to be made in the moment, IMO.

I personally believe that IF such assistance is appropriate it is only appropriate if the patient is medically certain to die AND medically certain to suffer at an unbearable level until death. What is unbearable vs. what is worth going through for a extra time with friends and family is a decision that I don't think can be made beforehand.
 
Last edited:
94Deac said:
You do realize these are just blank forms you're supposed to actually print out, fill out, have notarized, and keep in a safe, right? It's not like we're talking about online financial or health care records. And if your terminal stage is something you truly want to help your family avoid confusion about, you do it well in advance.

Doctors or (more likely) family members conspiring can and will happen regardless of what you've done. It's still a greatly diminished risk as opposed to lacking any kind of directive at all.

bcobb: In the hands of morons like Sarah Palin, even the most well-intentioned, public good can be twisted into something fear-mongering and self-serving.
Click to expand...

Which again raises access questions.
 
RChildress107 said:
I think the danger is when we take the fact that we can choose to die at any time (or cause others to die) and extrapolate that to think that we can forestall death until the moment of our choosing.
Click to expand...
Right, we become our own gods of death - giving and taking as we see fit.
 
RevDeac06 said:
Right, we become our own gods of death - giving and taking as we see fit.
Click to expand...

At what point can the argument be made that medical advances which prolong lives beyond their legitimate expectancy are in fact "giving life"?
 
Deacfreak07 said:
At what point can the argument be made that medical advances which prolong lives beyond their legitimate expectancy are in fact "giving life"?
Click to expand...
I think we're already there. Though I'd differentiate between extending life expectancy and extending a specific person's life.
 
SnD, I'm saddened to hear what your wife and family are going through. My hope is that her grandmother's passing is peaceful. I've seen hundreds of families go through this agony and have experienced it myself in the deaths of both parents and a brother.

The first thing any of us can do to help our families deal with our death in such circumstances is to execute advance directives AND discuss our wishes with both our family and physician(s). We can also choose a person to be our medical proxy to make decisions on our behalf if we are unable to. Doing this won't allow a physician assisted suicide, but there are sometimes care options which can ease our final days.

Three years ago this month my 64 year old brother suffered a catastrophic stroke - the kind that there is no hope of significant recovery from. His physician brother-in-law advised us that his condition was as bad as it gets. I spent my career in the nursing home industry, so I got the assignment to help his wife in the heart wrenching search for an appropriate rehab center/nursing home for him to spend his final weeks or months. After two days of that, the lead ICU physician asked for a family meeting to discuss his condition. She did an amazing job of compassionately walking my brother's wife and children thru the hopelessness of his situation and then noted that his breathing was becoming a bit labored as fluid was beginning to collect in his lungs. When she offered that they could give him morphine to ease his struggling, my nurse wife and I knew exactly where she was going. He died peacefully in the hospital a few days later.

I'll be forever grateful to that ICU physician for having the guts and compassion to do the right thing for both patient and family.
 
RevDeac06 said:
Yes, but what ethics asks is "should we?"
Click to expand...

Since I don't believe in either hell or the devil, can't one look at medical advances as being sanctioned by God? A ventilator or levels of drugs can be humane and beneficial.

How about this-maybe the choice to remove one from a ventilator or drugs that are simply extending life are a message from God that it's time.
 
It's hard for me to reconcile the theological and moral ethics in this matter when our primary sources for such ethics were written at a time that none of today's modern medicine existed.
 
WFU71's post is spot on, both my parents were compassionately treated at the point of no return the same and I was so thankful for their long and rich lives that I was happy for them. Thanks to the caring physicians and staffs over those final few days.
 
Some of you jumped right to living wills. If SnD's family member is merely dying (not on any machines, just slowly dying), I'm not sure what a living will would do - the question here is hastening death (not preventing it).

SnD - that's a hard two weeks but, assuming no care, I have to think her suffering will end soon. I wish you and your family peace.
 
RJKarl said:
Since I don't believe in either hell or the devil, can't one look at medical advances as being sanctioned by God? A ventilator or levels of drugs can be humane and beneficial.

How about this-maybe the choice to remove one from a ventilator or drugs that are simply extending life are a message from God that it's time.
Click to expand...

I guess you could, but I wouldn't say they were "sanctioned," that same thinking means that nuclear weapons are just as "sanctioned" by their very existence. Vents and drugs can be helpful, but they can be harmful too when they're causing more suffering than alleviating. Agreed that often the writing is on the wall and it takes us a while to see it.

DeaconCav06 said:
It's hard for me to reconcile the theological and moral ethics in this matter when our primary sources for such ethics were written at a time that none of today's modern medicine existed.
Click to expand...

It is, and that's why ethics is such a complex field. You have to look at the big picture of Scripture (love as the emphasis, idea that life is holy, and that God is the source of life) and then we do our best to apply that situationally. And reasonable people will disagree on what it means to lovingly acknowledge the holiness of life as a gift from God. Identify the goods in conflict, then pray and discern what seems right (and doing this work in community is better than going at it alone).
 
West End Deac said:
Some of you jumped right to living wills. If SnD's family member is merely dying (not on any machines, just slowly dying), I'm not sure what a living will would do - the question here is hastening death (not preventing it).

SnD - that's a hard two weeks but, assuming no care, I have to think her suffering will end soon. I wish you and your family peace.
Click to expand...

The thing is that it communicates a general state of mind regarding diminishing states or unmanageable pain. Contrary to 107's rather gloomy and pessimistic view of doctors, the very vast majority of them are truly committed to doing what's best for their patients. Having an organ that can communicate one's desire not to live in pain- or on life-sustaining technology- can make it easier for all involved to get to WFU71's situation where the doctors and family are communicating between the lines.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top