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PLEASE CURRIE!!!!

Charlotte sports reporter Scott Fowler spent 30 mins today on the "Slow death of WF basketball" article on the David Glenn statewide radio show with the reporter who wrote it Shine the light, end the darkness.
 
What do you all think of the following ( circa 2016 ) ?


This is how I see it.

I saw Prosser speak twice to my civic group. He was brilliant. It was like 3 great TED talks in one. Every one was riveted. The second time it was SRO. Included in his presentations was the argument that Div 1 BB was changing and a school like WF would have to figure out how to incorporate a small number of players who would be in school for 1 or 2 years before moving onto the NBA in its traditionally 4 year player culture.

He Died.

Dino Gaudio came to speak. After about 10 minutes nobody cared.

WF ( not just Ron Wellman) accepted that Skip Prosser was the kind of coach who could (perhaps even more so than Coach K) incorporate the strong egos of brilliant but short tenured BB players into the program, mold them, direct them, and create a culture that incorporated such varied talents. It was dependant on Skip Prosser’s abilities. It was a good bet. A 50 some year old energetic coach with the best of healthcare available to him should be around for 20-25 years at least.

It didn’t work out that way. Not only that but Skip’s death didn’t happen at the most opportune time. If WF was ever again going to find a coach with Skip’s talents, intellectual dedication, and drive (basically a once in a century possibility) it wasn’t going to happen on the cusp of fall practices.

So it was put in the hands of his 1st assistant, friend & understudy. Problem was the program and university had already made a cultural change to a coach who had by all assessments the unique talents to be a rainmaker. Dino not so much. He tried hard, it befuddled him, the powerful talent he had under him ran off on their own agenda.

It culminated in the horrendous game against CS in the 2009 NCAA tournament where as soon as Wake got behind James Johnson started playing for the NBA instead of WF, followed by Jeff Teague and then others. It was apparent then that Dino wasn’t managing the talent, the talent was managing Dino. Institutional control was lost at that point. Never the less he got another chance in 2010 and the results, in a beat down by KY, confirmed that the cultural combo of Dino, WF, and possibly soon-to-be NBA talent wasn’t working.

There was no way WF could depend on landing a Prosser level talent at any price. Most coaches who manage that level of talent in Div 1, as history has shown, do it by fudging the rules and risking the institution’s integrity. ( See recent examples Boeheim and Pitino) Quite frankly despite their wins those guys are intellectual and moral midgets compared to Prosser. Betting on lightning hitting twice is idiocy.

WF now was stuck with a bunch of players who needed brilliant mentoring, and a team whose "chemistry" and structure was out of control and the unlikely prospect of finding anyone who would honestly accept the challenge of reigning it in.

So what to do?

Hire a yeoman coach, set the program back on its traditional cultural course: picking and managing talent that could be developed in 3 or 4 years to compete in the mid tier to upper tier of the conference and occasionally finding enough talent to rise to near the top. Use the University’s attributes to draw solid players and the coaches connections to draw focused talent. Stay away from charismatic coaches and the institutional compromises they can engender.

I’m willing to bet JB ended up as coach not because Wellman was friends with him but because he was friendly with Wellman. I doubt anyone who evaluated the position at Wake who didn’t have the personal belief the AD would back him up would have taken the job. He was probably about as good as WF could get, the primary requirement at that time being : Here’s the rules-follow them.Period.

So he has a chance to do his best. He quickly shows he’s not up to it. (The first concept being the one that Danny Manning follows: if your talent isn’t brilliant oratory then don’t orate.)

But WF can’t can him without a reasonable tenure or it puts itself in a deeper hole, since the guy is probably only here because he trusts R. Wellman and if R. Wellman cans him and WF canned the last coach after winning seasons then no coaching prospect can have any faith that a tenure at WF is a good idea whether his goal is wins or integrity or both.

So JB goes 4 years, we all endure the pain, and a new leaf is turned. A coach without a deep record , but who has the personal record and the determination to prove and believe that persistence over several years of college can yield a future for a player. He’s shown he can achieve and earn and maintain integrity, while subsuming his ego to the long term goal. He doesn’t have to prove his worth by getting guys in the NBA. He’s been there and back. He’s a rookie, but a determined one. Don’t be surprised if he gets 5 or 6 years to get Wake back in the ACC mix. The institution has stood and grown since 1834, through wars etc., basketball glitches aren’t going to make it fall.

I can tell you as an alum, winning at sports is great, but the minute it risks the value of my diploma which is inherently tied to the perceived integrity of the institution, I don’t care, everyone involved needs to be canned: paid, scholarship, walk-on, or volunteer from the President down. The top institutions in the country and the world don’t build their legacies on winning games. They build them on the final achievements of their graduates and others who have been elevated by participation in their institutions. Games are for children, careers are for adults.

Posted by reasonabledeac on Mar 21, 2016 | 6:36 AM
 
at least most 8Xdeacs don't write fucking essays just to say "but culture"
 
HONDO2 said:
What do you all think of the following ( circa 2016 ) ?


This is how I see it.

I saw Prosser speak twice to my civic group. He was brilliant. It was like 3 great TED talks in one. Every one was riveted. The second time it was SRO. Included in his presentations was the argument that Div 1 BB was changing and a school like WF would have to figure out how to incorporate a small number of players who would be in school for 1 or 2 years before moving onto the NBA in its traditionally 4 year player culture.

He Died.

Dino Gaudio came to speak. After about 10 minutes nobody cared.

WF ( not just Ron Wellman) accepted that Skip Prosser was the kind of coach who could (perhaps even more so than Coach K) incorporate the strong egos of brilliant but short tenured BB players into the program, mold them, direct them, and create a culture that incorporated such varied talents. It was dependant on Skip Prosser’s abilities. It was a good bet. A 50 some year old energetic coach with the best of healthcare available to him should be around for 20-25 years at least.

It didn’t work out that way. Not only that but Skip’s death didn’t happen at the most opportune time. If WF was ever again going to find a coach with Skip’s talents, intellectual dedication, and drive (basically a once in a century possibility) it wasn’t going to happen on the cusp of fall practices.

So it was put in the hands of his 1st assistant, friend & understudy. Problem was the program and university had already made a cultural change to a coach who had by all assessments the unique talents to be a rainmaker. Dino not so much. He tried hard, it befuddled him, the powerful talent he had under him ran off on their own agenda.

It culminated in the horrendous game against CS in the 2009 NCAA tournament where as soon as Wake got behind James Johnson started playing for the NBA instead of WF, followed by Jeff Teague and then others. It was apparent then that Dino wasn’t managing the talent, the talent was managing Dino. Institutional control was lost at that point. Never the less he got another chance in 2010 and the results, in a beat down by KY, confirmed that the cultural combo of Dino, WF, and possibly soon-to-be NBA talent wasn’t working.

There was no way WF could depend on landing a Prosser level talent at any price. Most coaches who manage that level of talent in Div 1, as history has shown, do it by fudging the rules and risking the institution’s integrity. ( See recent examples Boeheim and Pitino) Quite frankly despite their wins those guys are intellectual and moral midgets compared to Prosser. Betting on lightning hitting twice is idiocy.

WF now was stuck with a bunch of players who needed brilliant mentoring, and a team whose "chemistry" and structure was out of control and the unlikely prospect of finding anyone who would honestly accept the challenge of reigning it in.

So what to do?

Hire a yeoman coach, set the program back on its traditional cultural course: picking and managing talent that could be developed in 3 or 4 years to compete in the mid tier to upper tier of the conference and occasionally finding enough talent to rise to near the top. Use the University’s attributes to draw solid players and the coaches connections to draw focused talent. Stay away from charismatic coaches and the institutional compromises they can engender.

I’m willing to bet JB ended up as coach not because Wellman was friends with him but because he was friendly with Wellman. I doubt anyone who evaluated the position at Wake who didn’t have the personal belief the AD would back him up would have taken the job. He was probably about as good as WF could get, the primary requirement at that time being : Here’s the rules-follow them.Period.

So he has a chance to do his best. He quickly shows he’s not up to it. (The first concept being the one that Danny Manning follows: if your talent isn’t brilliant oratory then don’t orate.)

But WF can’t can him without a reasonable tenure or it puts itself in a deeper hole, since the guy is probably only here because he trusts R. Wellman and if R. Wellman cans him and WF canned the last coach after winning seasons then no coaching prospect can have any faith that a tenure at WF is a good idea whether his goal is wins or integrity or both.

So JB goes 4 years, we all endure the pain, and a new leaf is turned. A coach without a deep record , but who has the personal record and the determination to prove and believe that persistence over several years of college can yield a future for a player. He’s shown he can achieve and earn and maintain integrity, while subsuming his ego to the long term goal. He doesn’t have to prove his worth by getting guys in the NBA. He’s been there and back. He’s a rookie, but a determined one. Don’t be surprised if he gets 5 or 6 years to get Wake back in the ACC mix. The institution has stood and grown since 1834, through wars etc., basketball glitches aren’t going to make it fall.

I can tell you as an alum, winning at sports is great, but the minute it risks the value of my diploma which is inherently tied to the perceived integrity of the institution, I don’t care, everyone involved needs to be canned: paid, scholarship, walk-on, or volunteer from the President down. The top institutions in the country and the world don’t build their legacies on winning games. They build them on the final achievements of their graduates and others who have been elevated by participation in their institutions. Games are for children, careers are for adults.

Posted by reasonabledeac on Mar 21, 2016 | 6:36 AM
Click to expand...

Probably more truth than most here can stomach
 
Stanford has both. Notre Dame has both. Duke has both. Other schools have both. We can have both with good management.

reasonabledeac is the epitome of LOWF.
 
I stopped reading when he/she said that [Redacted] "was probably about as good as WF could get."
 
I have never understood the thought that it must be either/or with athletics and academics. It's just such a flawed argument. There are a number of outstanding institutions that have excellent athletic programs, at all levels. The notion that any hint of athletic success means we must be cheating or we've devalued a diploma is just nonsense to me.
 
RJKarl said:
Stanford has both. Notre Dame has both. Duke has both. Other schools have both. We can have both with good management.

reasonabledeac is the epitome of LOWF.
Click to expand...

But honestly, at this point who gives a shit about both? The NCAA's rules are stupid, their investigations selective, their punishments are random and arbitrary, and nobody from the Courts to the legislatures to the media to the fans takes them seriously in any respect whatsoever. The benefit to our respective diplomas from our relatively, and certainly currently, unknown school making a Final Four far outweighs whatever minor image tarnish comes from doing things the "wrong" way. Were Carolina's diplomas "devalued" from cheating for years? Would they trade their natties for that scandal to go away? Fuck no. Would LSU trade its natty for ODB to not be throwing cash in the postgame lockerroom? Fuck no. Fuck Wake's pussy, sanctimonious mentality. Go hire Pitino, hire Coach Cal, hire Worldwide Wes, hire fucking Dave Bliss, hell pull Tark's coffin out of the ground and hire him, I don't give a shit, I just want to win.
 
TheAbster said:
I have never understood the thought that it must be either/or with athletics and academics. It's just such a flawed argument. There are a number of outstanding institutions that have excellent athletic programs, at all levels. The notion that any hint of athletic success means we must be cheating or we've devalued a diploma is just nonsense to me.
Click to expand...

It's an argument made popular by the folks who continued to worship at Wellman's feet over the last 10 years.
 
And please don't give us this BS about WFU and Danny Manning not bending their knee to one and done talent. They went out of their way and would have killed to get Harry Giles in school with Brandon Childress. We all know it and most of us approved it.
 
2&2 Slider To Leyritz said:
But honestly, at this point who gives a shit about both? The NCAA's rules are stupid, their investigations selective, their punishments are random and arbitrary, and nobody from the Courts to the legislatures to the media to the fans takes them seriously in any respect whatsoever. The benefit to our respective diplomas from our relatively, and certainly currently, unknown school making a Final Four far outweighs whatever minor image tarnish comes from doing things the "wrong" way. Were Carolina's diplomas "devalued" from cheating for years? Would they trade their natties for that scandal to go away? Fuck no. Would LSU trade its natty for ODB to not be throwing cash in the postgame lockerroom? Fuck no. Fuck Wake's pussy, sanctimonious mentality. Go hire Pitino, hire Coach Cal, hire Worldwide Wes, hire fucking Dave Bliss, hell pull Tark's coffin out of the ground and hire him, I don't give a shit, I just want to win.
Click to expand...

I agree with this wholeheartedly.
 
HONDO2 said:
What do you all think of the following ( circa 2016 ) ?


This is how I see it.

I saw Prosser speak twice to my civic group. He was brilliant. It was like 3 great TED talks in one. Every one was riveted. The second time it was SRO. Included in his presentations was the argument that Div 1 BB was changing and a school like WF would have to figure out how to incorporate a small number of players who would be in school for 1 or 2 years before moving onto the NBA in its traditionally 4 year player culture.

He Died.

Dino Gaudio came to speak. After about 10 minutes nobody cared.

WF ( not just Ron Wellman) accepted that Skip Prosser was the kind of coach who could (perhaps even more so than Coach K) incorporate the strong egos of brilliant but short tenured BB players into the program, mold them, direct them, and create a culture that incorporated such varied talents. It was dependant on Skip Prosser’s abilities. It was a good bet. A 50 some year old energetic coach with the best of healthcare available to him should be around for 20-25 years at least.

It didn’t work out that way. Not only that but Skip’s death didn’t happen at the most opportune time. If WF was ever again going to find a coach with Skip’s talents, intellectual dedication, and drive (basically a once in a century possibility) it wasn’t going to happen on the cusp of fall practices.

So it was put in the hands of his 1st assistant, friend & understudy. Problem was the program and university had already made a cultural change to a coach who had by all assessments the unique talents to be a rainmaker. Dino not so much. He tried hard, it befuddled him, the powerful talent he had under him ran off on their own agenda.

It culminated in the horrendous game against CS in the 2009 NCAA tournament where as soon as Wake got behind James Johnson started playing for the NBA instead of WF, followed by Jeff Teague and then others. It was apparent then that Dino wasn’t managing the talent, the talent was managing Dino. Institutional control was lost at that point. Never the less he got another chance in 2010 and the results, in a beat down by KY, confirmed that the cultural combo of Dino, WF, and possibly soon-to-be NBA talent wasn’t working.

There was no way WF could depend on landing a Prosser level talent at any price. Most coaches who manage that level of talent in Div 1, as history has shown, do it by fudging the rules and risking the institution’s integrity. ( See recent examples Boeheim and Pitino) Quite frankly despite their wins those guys are intellectual and moral midgets compared to Prosser. Betting on lightning hitting twice is idiocy.

WF now was stuck with a bunch of players who needed brilliant mentoring, and a team whose "chemistry" and structure was out of control and the unlikely prospect of finding anyone who would honestly accept the challenge of reigning it in.

So what to do?

Hire a yeoman coach, set the program back on its traditional cultural course: picking and managing talent that could be developed in 3 or 4 years to compete in the mid tier to upper tier of the conference and occasionally finding enough talent to rise to near the top. Use the University’s attributes to draw solid players and the coaches connections to draw focused talent. Stay away from charismatic coaches and the institutional compromises they can engender.

I’m willing to bet JB ended up as coach not because Wellman was friends with him but because he was friendly with Wellman. I doubt anyone who evaluated the position at Wake who didn’t have the personal belief the AD would back him up would have taken the job. He was probably about as good as WF could get, the primary requirement at that time being : Here’s the rules-follow them.Period.

So he has a chance to do his best. He quickly shows he’s not up to it. (The first concept being the one that Danny Manning follows: if your talent isn’t brilliant oratory then don’t orate.)

But WF can’t can him without a reasonable tenure or it puts itself in a deeper hole, since the guy is probably only here because he trusts R. Wellman and if R. Wellman cans him and WF canned the last coach after winning seasons then no coaching prospect can have any faith that a tenure at WF is a good idea whether his goal is wins or integrity or both.

So JB goes 4 years, we all endure the pain, and a new leaf is turned. A coach without a deep record , but who has the personal record and the determination to prove and believe that persistence over several years of college can yield a future for a player. He’s shown he can achieve and earn and maintain integrity, while subsuming his ego to the long term goal. He doesn’t have to prove his worth by getting guys in the NBA. He’s been there and back. He’s a rookie, but a determined one. Don’t be surprised if he gets 5 or 6 years to get Wake back in the ACC mix. The institution has stood and grown since 1834, through wars etc., basketball glitches aren’t going to make it fall.

I can tell you as an alum, winning at sports is great, but the minute it risks the value of my diploma which is inherently tied to the perceived integrity of the institution, I don’t care, everyone involved needs to be canned: paid, scholarship, walk-on, or volunteer from the President down. The top institutions in the country and the world don’t build their legacies on winning games. They build them on the final achievements of their graduates and others who have been elevated by participation in their institutions. Games are for children, careers are for adults.

Posted by reasonabledeac on Mar 21, 2016 | 6:36 AM
Click to expand...

Get a life.
 
2&2 Slider To Leyritz said:
But honestly, at this point who gives a shit about both? The NCAA's rules are stupid, their investigations selective, their punishments are random and arbitrary, and nobody from the Courts to the legislatures to the media to the fans takes them seriously in any respect whatsoever. The benefit to our respective diplomas from our relatively, and certainly currently, unknown school making a Final Four far outweighs whatever minor image tarnish comes from doing things the "wrong" way. Were Carolina's diplomas "devalued" from cheating for years? Would they trade their natties for that scandal to go away? Fuck no. Would LSU trade its natty for ODB to not be throwing cash in the postgame lockerroom? Fuck no. Fuck Wake's pussy, sanctimonious mentality. Go hire Pitino, hire Coach Cal, hire Worldwide Wes, hire fucking Dave Bliss, hell pull Tark's coffin out of the ground and hire him, I don't give a shit, I just want to win.
Click to expand...

Well said.
 
RacerDeac said:
It's an argument made popular by the folks who continued to worship at Wellman's feet over the last 10 years.
Click to expand...

Fuck the Wellmanites. The fact that that sanctimonious asshole has a street sign on campus after the way he dumped on our program and treated our fans like we're Californian homeless bums makes me wanna Nancy pelosi that sign
 
I have a frat brother who is a former AD at a school and has worked athletics his whole life who has maintained from the start that no one wanted the Wake job after Dino’s demise and that NR was the only option. I have fought against believing this for a long time and am no fan of RW but I have come to believe this to be true. I would regard him as a very solid source
 
MikeDeac said:
I have a frat brother who is a former AD at a school and has worked athletics his whole life who has maintained from the start that no one wanted the Wake job after Dino’s demise and that NR was the only option. I have fought against believing this for a long time and am no fan of RW but I have come to believe this to be true. I would regard him as a very solid source
Click to expand...

Not surprised. The fact Wellman bungled two consecutive hires and poisoned the hiring waters is not surprising. What was surprising and unforgivable was giving a bad head coach $18 million guaranteed. That can never be overlooked. To me, that's not only poor judgment, it's malpractice and borderline incompetence.
 
MikeDeac said:
I have a frat brother who is a former AD at a school and has worked athletics his whole life who has maintained from the start that no one wanted the Wake job after Dino’s demise and that NR was the only option. I have fought against believing this for a long time and am no fan of RW but I have come to believe this to be true. I would regard him as a very solid source
Click to expand...
This is almost certainly true to some degree. How Wellman handled Gaudio's termination was ridiculous. From the recent extension, to firing him after making the NCAA tourney & claiming it was for lack of post-season success, to allowing people in his sphere of influence to insinuate ridiculous shit about Dino; it was all about as poorly as one could imagine. If he wanted to fire Gaudio, he either needed to wait a season or two until WF struggled, or he needed to do it for cause (if a legit one existed). How Wellman did it made everyone on the outside think Gaudio was railroaded and WF Athletics was run by an insane a-hole.
 
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