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Pro Life / Pro Choice Debate

Manchin is a 50th vote on judges, so it's pretty fucking stupid to understate how important that is right now. His thumbprint is on dozens of pro-life judges. The key is to elect better Dems and more Dems and make Manchin's vote less important.
 
Manchin is a 50th vote on judges, so it's pretty fucking stupid to understate how important that is right now…The key is to elect better Dems and more Dems and make Manchin's vote less important.

Yep
 
Manchin is a 50th vote on judges, so it's pretty fucking stupid to understate how important that is right now. His thumbprint is on dozens of pro-life judges. The key is to elect better Dems and more Dems and make Manchin's vote less important.


Let’s continue this conversation on the Political CT, is the same argument on two threads.
 
The legislative obsolescence is purposeful. Dems forever failing to compromise with themselves is nothing more than a dog chasing it’s own tail. You can’t just slap a label on all the people unsupportive of the national Republican platform and call it a political party. It’s not. That’s not a party.

It isn't. You're right. The Republican Party is a homogeneous criminal organization motivated by hate. Democrats are a big tent of people just trying to live their life and they have to show up and vote against Republicans to stop whatever evil they're going to do. At the top are some well-meaning do-gooder class president types who think if they follow the rules and try hard they can make a difference.
 
It isn't. You're right. The Republican Party is a homogeneous criminal organization motivated by hate. Democrats are a big tent of people just trying to live their life and they have to show up and vote against Republicans to stop whatever evil they're going to do. At the top are some well-meaning do-gooder class president types who think if they follow the rules and try hard they can make a difference.

Bringing it around to Abortion - the big tent national Democratic Party hasn’t been capable of legislating for 40-50 years, that’s why the American progressive movement has been solely relying on judicial activism (let’s just call it what it is). We’ve been so confident that society would inevitably submit to our good “progressive” beliefs that we neglected to actually codify those beliefs. If it was ever possible to codify womens right to abortion, it’s certainly not possible now and it may never be again.
 
You're right, but I certainly haven't heard "Codify Roe!" chants from the base either.
 
And of course Glenn Greenwald is shilling for the for the reversal of Roe. I remember when he was the darling of the resentful far left. Good times.
 
Figures
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What pisses me off the most about this abortion issue is that it is NOT a women's rights issue.

That is fucking disgraceful, rude, and transphobic to all the birthing men out there. Reproductivity isn't owned by "women" and all y'all framing it like that are part of the problem.
 
i heard the opinion was authored by glenn greenwald
 
It’s gonna - especially if you’re underprivileged, poor, and/or forced to undergo a dangerous, illegal procedure just to have control over your own body and your own life. What a nightmare.
Don’t scream about babies and pro-life and Jesus if you are against welfare, social services, public education, and the dozens of other issues that provide support for those babies once they’re actually out of the womb.
 
What pisses me off the most about this abortion issue is that it is NOT a women's rights issue.

That is fucking disgraceful, rude, and transphobic to all the birthing men out there. Reproductivity isn't owned by "women" and all y'all framing it like that are part of the problem.

Edge-lord -- did you get that from Shapiro or Posobiec? Maybe Charlie Kirk?
 
To the extent this draft decision would make things a state by state free for all with no set judicial backstop like Roe made (i.e. laws need to be based on viability) - that creates a significant departure from current jurisprudence. And I question the capacity of Congress to fix such a decision with some sort of national law. I'll need to read the draft to get a sense of what lines it is drawing on how state laws might be able to be written and withstand Federal court challenges.

Relative to the law at issue in MS, in general it isn't all that far out of line in terms of time for an abortion to take place with most developed nations. Most of the developed world is at 17 weeks with some countries putting in larger restrictions, like Finland and the UK. Roe is aligned with the concept that the right to choose exists but ends at some point in time. Of course it is no shocker that the way the debate is being framed publicly on both sides doesn't acknowledge this reality of Roe.

Obviously it is a draft opinion and may not even reflect the actual final decision.
 
To the extent this draft decision would make things a state by state free for all with no set judicial backstop like Roe made (i.e. laws need to be based on viability) - that creates a significant departure from current jurisprudence. And I question the capacity of Congress to fix such a decision with some sort of national law. I'll need to read the draft to get a sense of what lines it is drawing on how state laws might be able to be written and withstand Federal court challenges.

Relative to the law at issue in MS, in general it isn't all that far out of line in terms of time for an abortion to take place with most developed nations. Most of the developed world is at 17 weeks with some countries putting in larger restrictions, like Finland and the UK. Roe is aligned with the concept that the right to choose exists but ends at some point in time. Of course it is no shocker that the way the debate is being framed publicly on both sides doesn't acknowledge this reality of Roe.

Obviously it is a draft opinion and may not even reflect the actual final decision.

If this draft doesn’t reflect the final decision, the majority will face a lot of negative backlash from the people who got them to where they are.
 
If this draft doesn’t reflect the final decision, the majority will face a lot of negative backlash from the people who got them to where they are.

Maybe. Maybe not. Opinions like this are full of all sorts of nuance and are deliberated significantly. So a final decision will draw all sorts of potential lines to get all in the majority on board.

The biggest apple cart that could be turned over would be for the court to completely advocate this issue to the legislative branch. Bc if Congress can't pass some sort of national law then we're in a free for all states are completely free to set their own limits with no Federal rule above them. And given the stature of our Congress I have zero confidence a national law could get passed. In such a scenario we'd maybe get some states who act like Madagascar (all abortions practically prohibited) and others like a few US states are already (really no practical gestational limits).

Roe's whole "viability" standard was always poorly constructed but it did put a stake in the ground that a state couldn't completely banish abortions. The flip side is it also put the US generally in a position where a state could try to pass a law that allows almost any abortion on the grounds the fetus is not viable outside the womb until it is outside the womb. Neither one of those positions remotely reflect the reality of public opinion as most people recognize the right to choose but do want a "viability" limit.

What we really need is a national law that sets a gestational limit and carves out other exceptions (even countries that ban most abortions still have exceptions for health of the Mom, rape, etc.). That would reflect where public opinion rests.
 
Maybe. Maybe not. Opinions like this are full of all sorts of nuance and are deliberated significantly. So a final decision will draw all sorts of potential lines to get all in the majority on board.

The biggest apple cart that could be turned over would be for the court to completely advocate this issue to the legislative branch. Bc if Congress can't pass some sort of national law then we're in a free for all states are completely free to set their own limits with no Federal rule above them. And given the stature of our Congress I have zero confidence a national law could get passed. In such a scenario we'd maybe get some states who act like Madagascar (all abortions practically prohibited) and others like a few US states are already (really no practical gestational limits).

Roe's whole "viability" standard was always poorly constructed but it did put a stake in the ground that a state couldn't completely banish abortions. The flip side is it also put the US generally in a position where a state could try to pass a law that allows almost any abortion on the grounds the fetus is not viable outside the womb until it is outside the womb. Neither one of those positions remotely reflect the reality of public opinion as most people recognize the right to choose but do want a "viability" limit.

What we really need is a national law that sets a gestational limit and carves out other exceptions (even countries that ban most abortions still have exceptions for health of the Mom, rape, etc.). That would reflect where public opinion rests.

To be fair, we have completely different systems across the states for adjudicating killing an adult or child. If you kill someone in Florida and Connecticut under the exact same circumstances, you can get completely different outcomes. Assuming you think viability arrives at any point at all during pregnancy, why should killing a fetus be any different in terms of states' ability to regulate it differently? It would be weird to have a national abortion law while we don't have a national murder law (except in very limited circumstances).
 
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