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Reasonable discussion on illegal immigration

Please don’t call legit sources biased and come back here with some Daily Caller opinion piece as “evidence.”
 
PhDeac said:
Please don’t call legit sources biased and come back here with some Daily Caller opinion piece as “evidence.”
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If I do you can fell free to call me out on it. However, to say there is no bias from Vox or a pro immigration organization is wrong. Not saying both sides don't report numbers with a slant, I know both sides do. I only care about the statistics, both economically and socially. If they work for illegal immigration, great no worries then. If they don't work, then illegal immigration needs to be addressed. Seems like a reasonable position, correct?
 
A biased source can be correct. It’s lazy to claim immigration is bad and say a source that says immigration is positive is just biased.
 
I also sent you this one:

https://bipartisanpolicy.org/blog/ho...-an-explainer/

How Much do Undocumented Workers Pay in Taxes?
The IRS estimates that undocumented immigrants pay over $9 billion in withheld payroll taxes annually. Undocumented immigrants also help make the Social Security system more solvent, as they pay into the system but are ineligible to collect benefits upon retiring. In 2010, $12 billion more was collected from Social Security payroll taxes of undocumented workers than were paid out in benefits.

Do Undocumented Immigrants Collect Benefits?
Undocumented immigrants are eligible for very few federal benefits (Table 1). One notable tax benefit that they have traditionally been eligible for is the Child Tax Credit, a partially refundable credit designed to support low-income families based on their dependent children. A report from the Treasury Department estimated that undocumented immigrants received $4.2 billion in refundable child tax credits in 2010, or roughly one-eighth of the total paid.

However, last year’s tax law changed eligibility requirements by making the refundable portion of the child tax credit only available to filers whose dependents have valid Social Security numbers, therefore rendering ITIN filers with undocumented children unable to claim the CTC for those dependents.

TABLE 1: WHAT FEDERAL BENEFITS ARE UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS ELIGIBLE FOR?
Tax Credits (Refundable) Ineligible for most tax credits; ITIN holders with U.S. children can receive the Child Tax Credit
Pell Grants & Student Loans Ineligible
Unemployment Insurance Ineligible
Supplemental Security Income (SSI) Ineligible
Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP) Ineligible
Social Security Ineligible
Medicaid Emergency service only
Health Care Premium and Cost-Sharing Assistance Ineligible

You premise about getting services is also false as they are ineligible.

here's another:

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/investi...-Social-Security-and-Medicare--449790973.html

"Based on the Social Security Chief Actuary's most recent records obtained by NBC 7 Investigates, undocumented workers, paid at least $12 billion into Social Security in 2010 alone. These payroll contributions are collected the same way all employee deductions are paid.

Undocumented workers though, who don't work for cash, must give their employers a fake Social Security number and while the federal government knows who they are, there is no effort to use that data to deport them.

"I'm not expecting anything,” Maria said. “I know that once I retire, I know that I am not going to get any of this money I am contributing to this country back. As a person who lives in this beautiful country, I need to contribute. I need to do my best to get this done right."

And another:

https://news.vice.com/en_us/article...billion-into-social-security-over-last-decade

How about Money?

https://money.cnn.com/2017/04/19/news/economy/undocumented-immigrant-taxes/index.html

How many legitimate sources saying the same thing do you need?

You are acting just like the RW BS that you posted. Nothing but your position is acceptable. You rely on non-proven cites.

You rely on non-logical concepts like too many people live in apartments or homes to pay for school. How about all the undocumented people whose kids have finished school and whose rent is still paying for schools?

You don't understand how any of this works, yet you still make statements about it. You don't understand that millions of undocumented people pay payroll taxes every week by using fake IDs/SSN.
 
So your answer is black people?
 
Yeah, black Americans all day every day. This issue affects their ability to form nuclear families, incarceration rates, have a meaningful wage, safer working conditions, etc.
Here is a Harvard study
https://sites.hks.harvard.edu/fs/gborjas/publications/journal/Economica2010.pdf

UC Davis with economic examples and crime issue. Illegal workers need to stolen identities to work
https://migration.ucdavis.edu/rmn/more.php?id=1195

From a partisan political perspective, I don't see how the Dems can keep the poor black vote and be so pro-immigration. Sounds like another scenario where there is a "surprise" on election day, and Trump gets re-elected.
 
Wow. So your argument against immigration is that black people should be the permanent underclass.
 
"Permanent underclass?" Uh no, not what I said at all. Not even close. I'm sure you don't want immigrants to be a permanent underclass, so why assume that of me of blacks? That is not what the Harvard and UC Davis studies said either. If this is going to be a reasonable discussion, you shouldn't read evil intentions into what others are saying.
 
You said you wanted black people to have the low skilled jobs in the US.

Feel free to rephrase your point but that’s what you said.

I think we should strive to have the best people in the jobs and encourage the best people to create jobs as well. If the best people aren’t US citizens then we need to better train our citizens.

It shouldn’t be about which group by race or nationality should be filling the “low skilled” labor force. It takes a baffling number of stereotypes about black people and immigrants as well as an ignorance of racial discrimination to prop up your post.
 
Seasonal migratory agriculture work is not capable of supporting Americans. The undocumented workers who take these jobs are invisible and have to live like gypsies - generally to support families in mexico and south america where the cost of living is much lower. Its bullshit to expect American citizens to do such demanding work for less than living wages. Thats some Grapes of Wrath Tom Joad shit.

Regarding the service/hospitality/construction industries, I think the responsibility should be on the employers to verify the the citizenship of their employees.
 
My first job was seasonal agricultural work. It wasn’t beneath me
 
PhDeac said:
You said you wanted black people to have the low skilled jobs in the US.

Feel free to rephrase your point but that’s what you said.
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I think we should strive to have the best people in the jobs and encourage the best people to create jobs as well. If the best people aren’t US citizens then we need to better train our citizens.
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In the 5-7 mins it took you to reply to my posts, I doubt you read the articles linked. See UC Davis article for what constitutes a "good" worker at Crider chicken processing plant.

It shouldn’t be about which group by race or nationality should be filling the “low skilled” labor force. It takes a baffling number of stereotypes about black people and immigrants as well as an ignorance of racial discrimination to prop up your post.
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From Forbes article:
These immigrants will compete with Americans in the low-skilled labor markets. The competition is most fierce in some of the industries in which blacks historically have been highly concentrated, such as, agriculture and service. Since the supply of low-skilled workers already exceeds the demand, the massive influx in low-skilled immigrants bodes ill for all such workers, but particularly black males.
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Forbes author
Peter Kirsanow

Mr. Kirsanow is a lawyer in Cleveland, OH who writes about civil rights, appellate courts and politics.
...
Mr. Kirsanow was also formerly a member of the National Labor Relations Board and Chair of the Center for New Black Leadership.


From Harvard article:
Although immigration has disproportionately increased the number of low-skilled
workers in the USA, only a few studies (Altonji and Card 1991; LaLonde and Topel
1991) have sought to estimate the effect of immigration on the wages of AfricanAmericans,
who are disproportionately represented among the low-skilled.3
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Those studies were taken almost thirty years ago...
 
Ate at a variety of places in high point during homecoming. The pretty much all white diners and all black servers was super awkward #anecdotes
 
awaken, I didn’t respond to the linked articles. I responded to you.

Palma, your anecdotes aren’t unusual.
 
netflixnchildres said:
Lots of factors to consider here, will have to run more numbers. For example, with rents there is the possibility there is a disproportionate of STAR owners renting to illegal immigrants with large families, hence there would be a loss there. With the ITEP.org report they estimate that 50% of illegals pay taxes, but offer no citation so it seems at best to be a guess. Even if true, the 50% paying taxes could all be single filing illegal immigrants and not large families. Would make sense too if that were the case, because risking only the deportation of yourself is way more sensible then risking the deportation of your spouse or children as well. These two sources are not completely unbiased either. If after doing an extensive fact-checking of all the numbers being reported across various sources it comes out that illegal immigration is a net positive on the American taxpayer I will eat crow. Logically I would be surprised if it did turn out that way, but I can see how I may have overlooked some factors such as increases in sales tax revenue, etc.
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It’s almost like we need a system where anyone living in our country and contributing to our economy can do so without fear of deportation.

As to the second bold: the consensus seems to be that immigration is a net positive for America as a whole, while a net negative for certain groups of Americans. This is true of virtually every policy choice.

Brookings

NPR

Cato
 
I see Netflix laying out a lot of assertions and bets here about illegal immigrants mooching off the system but offering nothing to backup or support his claims. That’s not really a basis for a “reasonable discussion.” If you think Vox or NPR are biased then offer some evidence or counter their conclusions with more than “that feels wrong.”
 
Deacon923 said:
The essential elements of immigration reform have been well known basically forever. Enhanced border security to please the hawks, path to citizenship for the 10,000,000 undocumented already here to please the doves, and a revamped legal immigration system that is transparent and actually allows people to apply to immigrate here and get jobs to please the chamber of commerce constituency.

The crazy thing about US immigration is that there is basically no way to put your name on an application and say "I want to get in the legal line to enter the greatest country on earth." The only legal ways to immigrate are to be sponsored by an employer through a byzantine program, which is often temporary and doesn't lead to citizenship, come in on an asylum claim, or be sponsored by a family member. Most Americans think there is a way to "get in line" to get a green card or become a citizen. In fact there basically is no line. When the immigration system is so broken and essentially non-existent, it is no surprise that people desperate to improve their circumstances are going to try their luck without documentation.

Finally, it would also help if Central America wasn't such a, pardon the phrase, shithole right now due to incredibly bad autocratic and corrupt governments. Mexico got its act more or less together, helped by NAFTA, and immigration from Mexico is way, way down. If you are desperate enough to walk across the entire country of Mexico, there is no reasonable amount of border security that is going to stop you, even Trump's magical insanely expensive wall. Instead of spending insane sums trying to keep these people out with methods that won't work anyway, we should be harnessing that energy and drive by creating a legitimate mechanism to bring these people in to bolster our workforce and aging population.
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Great post - but why is it so hard to get a program through. Both parties have had the 'power' to do so over the past 2 decades and neither have made a dent. My cynical mind tells me that this is because both parties see political advantage from manipulating the broken the system. Hopefully that is not true, but there is no reason that the greatest nation on earth shouldn't create a system that allows great minds and people from all over the world to come and contribute to our society. Instead we have a system that encourages malfeasance. Since we seemed pretty aligned on this, what are some actual steps we could take?
 
Even government stats about Social Security, Medicare and other payroll taxes aren't enough for him.

The logic that tens of millions of people spend into twelve figures annually into our economy is irrelevant.

The logic that people pay for schools through rent doesn't matter.

His saying he isn't supporting RW BS by posting it without any proof is something no reasonable person can understand. Taking time to theoretically look things up after his post takes radical and wrong positions is just a way to get out of admitting how wrong he is.
 
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