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Reasonable discussion on illegal immigration

Hopefully I can jump in with some more specific policy ideas, but I believe any reasonably attainable immigration has to be built on four principles:

1) It should be harder to immigrate illegally
2) It should be much easier to immigrate legally
3) There needs to be a plan in place to deal with those that are undocumented that is both humane and does not disrupt the country's economy, including a path to citizenship for those with TPS, DACA, and others who are undocumented.
4) Ensures that the country lives up to it's stated and aspirational ideals of humanity in offering safe harbor for refugees and asylees.

Along these lines, it would make so much sense to have a fully implemented guest worker program. We need workers. Remember losing nine figures worth of crops when GA and AL enacted draconian laws?

There are other jobs that are similar. They are across the entire spectrum.

We need a new administration to make #4 work. The previous two tried and were blocked. W and Obama each tried to pass humane immigration reform only to be blocked by McConnell. Mitch McConnell is the single biggest hindrance to logical and humane immigration reform.

As long as Trump is in power, the Statue of Liberty will be crying.
 
I would say that a good portion of the 'taking advantage of the asylum' would disappear if we had a more transparent system, so my own personal opinion is that we would be more open to asylum until we have a more trackable/open immigration processing system in place, but at some point you have to address the fact that immigrants are dishonestly claiming asylum because it is effective..

A word on this as well. It's not all that effective. The credible fear requirement for gaining asylum is pretty steep. Also, it depends on which judge/court you are sent to. Charlotte only grants asylum to about 11% of all cases, with one judge having a denial rate of 94%. Atlanta also denies about 89% of cases, while Hawaii and New York are more lenient with the standard. All of these deportation percentages are going to increase when the most recent data is released because of the zero tolerance policy and the AG's proclamation that neither gang violence nor domestic violence can satisfy the criteria for having a credible fear of persecution based on social class.
 
A word on this as well. It's not all that effective. The credible fear requirement for gaining asylum is pretty steep. Also, it depends on which judge/court you are sent to. Charlotte only grants asylum to about 11% of all cases, with one judge having a denial rate of 94%. Atlanta also denies about 89% of cases, while Hawaii and New York are more lenient with the standard. All of these deportation percentages are going to increase when the most recent data is released because of the zero tolerance policy and the AG's proclamation that neither gang violence nor domestic violence can satisfy the criteria for having a credible fear of persecution based on social class.

One of the most rewarding things I've done as an attorney is work on a successful asylum case for a woman from Kenyan with an abusive husband and who was stuck in an area where there were constant tribal "clashes" going on. This was over a decade ago, so my memory of it is a little hazy, but It was a lot of work -- several hearings and a 50 or so page brief. Definitely not just a simple rubber stamp. And had this new standard applied then, she probably would have lost and be dead right now.
 
Hopefully I can jump in with some more specific policy ideas, but I believe any reasonably attainable immigration has to be built on four principles:

1) It should be harder to immigrate illegally
2) It should be much easier to immigrate legally
3) There needs to be a plan in place to deal with those that are undocumented that is both humane and does not disrupt the country's economy, including a path to citizenship for those with TPS, DACA, and others who are undocumented.
4) Ensures that the country lives up to it's stated and aspirational ideals of humanity in offering safe harbor for refugees and asylees.

You have my vote.
 

But you won't answer this:

"I'll reply in red to your comments. Good thoughts, but I do have some questions and disagreements. First - don't hate to break anything to me. I am fine with a Democratic rule that agrees with my principals. Democrats had the power to make changes to immigration and Obama and his cohorts chose not to. It isn't as simple as replacing Republicans, because Democrats have proven to not be interested in doing anything either. "

This is totally false. Obama worked with the Gang of Eight to put together a comprehensive immigration plan that was blocked by McConnell and Ryan from coming up for a vote that would have passed.
 
But you won't answer this:

"I'll reply in red to your comments. Good thoughts, but I do have some questions and disagreements. First - don't hate to break anything to me. I am fine with a Democratic rule that agrees with my principals. Democrats had the power to make changes to immigration and Obama and his cohorts chose not to. It isn't as simple as replacing Republicans, because Democrats have proven to not be interested in doing anything either. "

This is totally false. Obama worked with the Gang of Eight to put together a comprehensive immigration plan that was blocked by McConnell and Ryan from coming up for a vote that would have passed.

Yes I am not going to get sidetracked into crazy world. We can just agree to disagree. I’m good with that.
 
Yes I am not going to get sidetracked into crazy world. We can just agree to disagree. I’m good with that.

How is it "sidetracked into crazy" to admit you were totally wrong?

It's not agree to disagree. What I posted were historical facts. It is indisputable Obama had a bipartisan comprehensive immigration bill (Rubio, Corker and McCain helped write it) that McConnell and Ryan wouldn't allow to come to a vote.

You are entitled to your opinion. You aren't entitled to change history to make it fit your opinion.
 
One of the most rewarding things I've done as an attorney is work on a successful asylum case for a woman from Kenyan with an abusive husband and who was stuck in an area where there were constant tribal "clashes" going on. This was over a decade ago, so my memory of it is a little hazy, but It was a lot of work -- several hearings and a 50 or so page brief. Definitely not just a simple rubber stamp. And had this new standard applied then, she probably would have lost and be dead right now.

That’s really cool Shoo. Your experience shows a broken system on the other side of the coin from ‘build that wall’. True asylum cases should be more streamlined.
 
A word on this as well. It's not all that effective. The credible fear requirement for gaining asylum is pretty steep. Also, it depends on which judge/court you are sent to. Charlotte only grants asylum to about 11% of all cases, with one judge having a denial rate of 94%. Atlanta also denies about 89% of cases, while Hawaii and New York are more lenient with the standard. All of these deportation percentages are going to increase when the most recent data is released because of the zero tolerance policy and the AG's proclamation that neither gang violence nor domestic violence can satisfy the criteria for having a credible fear of persecution based on social class.

This is the source for my thoughts on the increasing asylum claims. Based upon my reading it isn’t that a high percentage are being granted citizenship, it’s that Obama wasn’t even detaining the families in a lot of cases. I can’t seem to think of another reason why this chart would look like this other than the border simply wasn’t being enforced effectively.

728ad947099b7f2dce6e31f062281191.jpg


Without getting too deep into political back and forth I think we can all agree that Trump is tougher on the border than Obama. To me that is the reason for the rise in asylum claims from the southern border. As ‘standard’ entry ports are made more difficult, alternative entry methods are being used.

I am not claiming these are effective methods, simply that the method is being used more often. This puts Trump is a bad spot as he attempts to stay tough and as usual he makes a complete mess of the situation.
 
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It’s one of those forced to make people look bad things. Asylum should be respected and streamlines in this country. You should be able to enter any legal port of entry, as it was designed and claim asylum. The problem is when you turn asylum seekers away and force them to cross illegally and then claim see they are illegal immigrants end asylum blah blah blah.
 
The rise in asylum claims has nothing to do with being tougher at the border. It's about the number of people trying to cross the border. This is much more about how many people are being driven from their homes and have become refugees.

Do you actually think thousands of people (many of whom speak non-Spanish languages) care about Trump?

If you are so oppressed that you willing to walk over a thousand miles with just the clothes on your back and your kids, do you think they are thinking about Trump?

Also, do you actually think the people who set these groups say anything other than it's easy to get into the United States?
 
This is the source for my thoughts on the increasing asylum claims. Based upon my reading it isn’t that a high percentage are being granted citizenship, it’s that Obama wasn’t even detaining the families in a lot of cases. I can’t seem to think of another reason why this chart would look like this other than the border simply wasn’t being enforced effectively.

728ad947099b7f2dce6e31f062281191.jpg


Without getting too deep into political back and forth I think we can all agree that Trump is tougher on the border than Obama. To me that is the reason for the rise in asylum claims from the southern border. As ‘standard’ entry ports are made more difficult, alternative entry methods are being used.

I am not claiming these are effective methods, simply that the method is being used more often. This puts Trump is a bad spot as he attempts to stay tough and as usual he makes a complete mess of the situation.

There is a lot going into this graph.

First - granted asylum claims don't grant citizenship - it doesn't even grant legal permanent residency. It just grants the ability to stay in the country with an immigrant visa. One has to be in country for 1+ years with no criminal activity to be eligible for LPR (green card) and for 5+ years for citizenship (there are some other stipulations, economic and otherwise).

Also, a note on US asylum law:
a) All people have a right to present themselves at a POE (port of entry) and request asylum and receive due process in determining the merit of their claim.
b) From the INA, section 208: Any alien who is physically present in the United States or who arrives in the United States (whether or not at a designated port of arrival) . . . irrespective of such alien's status, may apply for asylum in accordance with this section

It doesn't matter if you present yourself at a POE or cross the border illegally, if you present yourself to an agent of the government within a reasonable amount of time (which has traditionally been interpreted as within the first year), you are guaranteed the right to due process of your asylum claim.

One reason for the spike in apprehensions is Trump's zero tolerance policy. This policy removed any prosecutorial discretion and mandates the arrest and full prosecution of any person who crosses the border illegally (which is being fought in the courts because it directly violates explicit written us law, as does his latest EO that would deny any asylum claim for anyone who doesn't enter at a POE).

With these policies, we are seeing a rise in people who cross to seek asylum not at POE because of several factors:

A) Backlog at POEs - Often the wait at the POEs is several weeks, mainly because CBP is processing asylum claims at an alarmingly low rate - often as few as 3 a day. With no services, inadequate means of lodging, ways to get food - crossing the dessert border is sometimes less risky than just waiting to cross at the POE, which they may not even be allowed to do.

B) Misinformation - Those waiting for asylum are often told that the bridge is closed and are turned away (which is illegal). With no other option, they choose to cross the dessert and present themselves for asylum.

C) The Trump Administration has drastically reduced legal means of immigration. The administration has reduced the ceiling on refugees by 70%, to the lowest is has ever been. It has reduced the numbers for the diversity lottery visas and completely barred several countries from inclusion. It has further restricted the definition of family for PARs limiting who can been petitioned for, and has underfunded the immigration judges who process these cases causing a further backlog. With these channels closed, many are more likely to take the risk of crossing not at a POE and being apprehended.

On the discrepancy between Trump and Obama apprehensions/detentions

As I noted before. The primary practice of the Obama administration was similar to the parole/probation system. Those that requested asylum (at a POE or at apprehension) would be release to the care of a family member in the states or under the supervision of a case manager. The percentage of those who then did not appear for their asylum hearing was very low (especially for those who had a case manager). Trump discontinued this program, despite its success and cost effectiveness in favor of detention.

While there is an increase in asylum seekers, it doesn't necessarily follow that Trump is tougher in immigration in a limiting border crossing sense, he is tougher in a "denying humanity" sense. Also, if you notice 3 of the 5 highest months of apprehensions on your graph happened during the Obama administration.

Further, globally, there are also many more displaced people in the world, which gives rise to that number as well.
 
Also, to give netflix (i think) some context on the economic necessity of immigration on the workforce and to counter the "they're taking our jobs" thought process. From the lobor department:

DrVKajWV4AAzRtQ.jpg
 
There is a lot going into this graph.

First - granted asylum claims don't grant citizenship - it doesn't even grant legal permanent residency. It just grants the ability to stay in the country with an immigrant visa. One has to be in country for 1+ years with no criminal activity to be eligible for LPR (green card) and for 5+ years for citizenship (there are some other stipulations, economic and otherwise).

Also, a note on US asylum law:
a) All people have a right to present themselves at a POE (port of entry) and request asylum and receive due process in determining the merit of their claim.
b) From the INA, section 208: Any alien who is physically present in the United States or who arrives in the United States (whether or not at a designated port of arrival) . . . irrespective of such alien's status, may apply for asylum in accordance with this section

It doesn't matter if you present yourself at a POE or cross the border illegally, if you present yourself to an agent of the government within a reasonable amount of time (which has traditionally been interpreted as within the first year), you are guaranteed the right to due process of your asylum claim.

One reason for the spike in apprehensions is Trump's zero tolerance policy. This policy removed any prosecutorial discretion and mandates the arrest and full prosecution of any person who crosses the border illegally (which is being fought in the courts because it directly violates explicit written us law, as does his latest EO that would deny any asylum claim for anyone who doesn't enter at a POE).

With these policies, we are seeing a rise in people who cross to seek asylum not at POE because of several factors:

A) Backlog at POEs - Often the wait at the POEs is several weeks, mainly because CBP is processing asylum claims at an alarmingly low rate - often as few as 3 a day. With no services, inadequate means of lodging, ways to get food - crossing the dessert border is sometimes less risky than just waiting to cross at the POE, which they may not even be allowed to do.

B) Misinformation - Those waiting for asylum are often told that the bridge is closed and are turned away (which is illegal). With no other option, they choose to cross the dessert and present themselves for asylum.

C) The Trump Administration has drastically reduced legal means of immigration. The administration has reduced the ceiling on refugees by 70%, to the lowest is has ever been. It has reduced the numbers for the diversity lottery visas and completely barred several countries from inclusion. It has further restricted the definition of family for PARs limiting who can been petitioned for, and has underfunded the immigration judges who process these cases causing a further backlog. With these channels closed, many are more likely to take the risk of crossing not at a POE and being apprehended.

On the discrepancy between Trump and Obama apprehensions/detentions

As I noted before. The primary practice of the Obama administration was similar to the parole/probation system. Those that requested asylum (at a POE or at apprehension) would be release to the care of a family member in the states or under the supervision of a case manager. The percentage of those who then did not appear for their asylum hearing was very low (especially for those who had a case manager). Trump discontinued this program, despite its success and cost effectiveness in favor of detention.

While there is an increase in asylum seekers, it doesn't necessarily follow that Trump is tougher in immigration in a limiting border crossing sense, he is tougher in a "denying humanity" sense. Also, if you notice 3 of the 5 highest months of apprehensions on your graph happened during the Obama administration.

Further, globally, there are also many more displaced people in the world, which gives rise to that number as well.

Really good info. Thanks. I think the opposing (not really opposing, as it doesn't deny your statement, but it is a side discussion that argues a somewhat different motive) argument would be that those people weren't really seeking asylum, they were seeking to bypass the standard immigration process.

Of course we know that the standard immigration process is next to impossible to navigate and eternally long (and expensive) to complete. We have created a game that no one can win, and we are surprised desperate people circumvent the system (which in my opinion is what is happening...and is what I would do in the same situation), so instead of demonizing people who are trying to seek a better life for their family we should be creating a real opportunity for them to enter, work, produce, contribute to our society in a manner that is accountable to our government and our citizenship.
 
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Check this out for a reasonable discussion idea: allow US citizens who retire to Mexico to spend their Medicare dollars on medical treatment in Mexico, which would (a) probably save Medicare money and (b) provide quality employment for Central Americans and Mexicans in Mexico, thus helping to relieve migration pressure on the southern border. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/11/migration-proposal-help-both-us-and-mexico/576781/

Pretty neat idea, instead of just giving foreign aid to horribly-run central american countries we use money we were going to spend anyway to build up an economy.
 
Check this out for a reasonable discussion idea: allow US citizens who retire to Mexico to spend their Medicare dollars on medical treatment in Mexico, which would (a) probably save Medicare money and (b) provide quality employment for Central Americans and Mexicans in Mexico, thus helping to relieve migration pressure on the southern border. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/11/migration-proposal-help-both-us-and-mexico/576781/

Pretty neat idea, instead of just giving foreign aid to horribly-run central american countries we use money we were going to spend anyway to build up an economy.

Interesting, but that would be an extremely difficult sell to middle America. As in that would be an impossible sell. But I believe that about half of unauthorized immigrants are from Mexico, so I like the idea of addressing the largest source. I hear Mississippians joke all the time about annexing Mexico and allowing California to secede, but in all honesty the melding of Mexico and America would be a mutually beneficial relationship in a lot of ways. Obviously an annexation isn't going to occur, but blended sub economies would accomplish a lot of the good. Cool article, and nice out of the box idea.
 
I can understand why MS is jealous of CA and has kindred spirits with Mexico. CA is successful, inviting, innovative. Mexico is under-educated, paid poorly, rural and has basically support one party for decades...just like MS...

If we had guest worker or EU-like cross border legal working, much of the immigration problem with Mexico would be a thing of the past.
 
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