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Refs in gonzaga and unc

Deacfreak07 said:
I think it's fair to criticize the three adults on the floor who are paid professionals for their poor performance.
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Sure it is fair, but I was watching the same game you were watching and I didn't think the performance was poor. If I was a supervisor of officials for them, I would have evaluated it as a job well done because they kept it under control in a game that was poorly played with many missed shots that lead to many many rebound situations. You put that in there and all the times both teams are going to the hole and it makes for many decisions to have to make as to whether or not to blow the whistle. With both teams have more than the normal amount of huge big guys who are used to crashing the boards & getting offensive rebounds, you will have players being on the backs [not over the backs because that is not a foul--has to be contact]. You also have 2 teams that have guards that drive to the hole and try to create contact so that can make for many decisions one way or another and 50% won't like the way that goes--no whistle or a whistle.

There was a lot of jockeying for position by the big guys--how much of that do you let go & how much is called for freedom of movement? You can't let them go all night! You can't let 300+ pounder Karnowski bull over Meeks, even though we would like that. And you can't let Meeks knock Collins all over the place. There were several swim moves called on Collins that got him in foul trouble and a couple on the backs that were just stupid! He didn't play smart like he did against South Carolina. And as I said, both teams missed 86 FG's--that makes for an extremely messy game, having been on the floor for many of those. So yes, there were some missed calls, but they had no bearing on the game. Even the review was correct and the F! on Karnowski was right. He grabbed him by the neck--had to be made.
 
TheReff said:
Sure it is fair,... and I didn't think the performance was poor. If I was a supervisor of officials for them, I would have evaluated it as a job well done because they kept it under control in a game that was poorly played with many missed shots that lead to many many rebound situations. You put that in there and all the times both teams are going to the hole and it makes for many decisions to have to make as to whether or not to blow the whistle. With both teams have more than the normal amount of huge big guys who are used to crashing the boards & getting offensive rebounds, you will have players being on the backs [not over the backs because that is not a foul--has to be contact]. You also have 2 teams that have guards that drive to the hole and try to create contact so that can make for many decisions one way or another and 50% won't like the way that goes--no whistle or a whistle.

There was a lot of jockeying for position by the big guys--how much of that do you let go & how much is called for freedom of movement? You can't let them go all night! You can't let 300+ pounder Karnowski bull over Meeks, even though we would like that. And you can't let Meeks knock Collins all over the place. There were several swim moves called on Collins that got him in foul trouble and a couple on the backs that were just stupid! He didn't play smart like he did against South Carolina. And as I said, both teams missed 86 FG's--that makes for an extremely messy game, having been on the floor for many of those. So yes, there were some missed calls, but they had no bearing on the game. Even the review was correct and the F! on Karnowski was right. He grabbed him by the neck--had to be made.
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You knew when this thread posted that it was like a siren song for TheReff.

Same shit,different day.
 
TheReff said:
Sure it is fair, but I was watching the same game you were watching and I didn't think the performance was poor. If I was a supervisor of officials for them, I would have evaluated it as a job well done because they kept it under control in a game that was poorly played with many missed shots that lead to many many rebound situations. You put that in there and all the times both teams are going to the hole and it makes for many decisions to have to make as to whether or not to blow the whistle. With both teams have more than the normal amount of huge big guys who are used to crashing the boards & getting offensive rebounds, you will have players being on the backs [not over the backs because that is not a foul--has to be contact]. You also have 2 teams that have guards that drive to the hole and try to create contact so that can make for many decisions one way or another and 50% won't like the way that goes--no whistle or a whistle.

There was a lot of jockeying for position by the big guys--how much of that do you let go & how much is called for freedom of movement? You can't let them go all night! You can't let 300+ pounder Karnowski bull over Meeks, even though we would like that. And you can't let Meeks knock Collins all over the place. There were several swim moves called on Collins that got him in foul trouble and a couple on the backs that were just stupid! He didn't play smart like he did against South Carolina. And as I said, both teams missed 86 FG's--that makes for an extremely messy game, having been on the floor for many of those. So yes, there were some missed calls, but they had no bearing on the game. Even the review was correct and the F! on Karnowski was right. He grabbed him by the neck--had to be made.
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I didn't watch the game. No interest in seeing that coronation.
 
TheReff said:
Sure it is fair, but I was watching the same game you were watching and I didn't think the performance was poor. If I was a supervisor of officials for them, I would have evaluated it as a job well done because they kept it under control in a game that was poorly played with many missed shots that lead to many many rebound situations. You put that in there and all the times both teams are going to the hole and it makes for many decisions to have to make as to whether or not to blow the whistle. With both teams have more than the normal amount of huge big guys who are used to crashing the boards & getting offensive rebounds, you will have players being on the backs [not over the backs because that is not a foul--has to be contact]. You also have 2 teams that have guards that drive to the hole and try to create contact so that can make for many decisions one way or another and 50% won't like the way that goes--no whistle or a whistle.

There was a lot of jockeying for position by the big guys--how much of that do you let go & how much is called for freedom of movement? You can't let them go all night! You can't let 300+ pounder Karnowski bull over Meeks, even though we would like that. And you can't let Meeks knock Collins all over the place. There were several swim moves called on Collins that got him in foul trouble and a couple on the backs that were just stupid! He didn't play smart like he did against South Carolina. And as I said, both teams missed 86 FG's--that makes for an extremely messy game, having been on the floor for many of those. So yes, there were some missed calls, but they had no bearing on the game. Even the review was correct and the F! on Karnowski was right. He grabbed him by the neck--had to be made.
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No one's arguing it wasn't a poorly played game. But perhaps the teams could have gotten into a better flow and made more shots (as both teams did in the last couple minutes), if it wasn't so poorly officiated with so many unnecessary whistles and lengthy reviews.
 
I disagreed with the F1 on Gonzaga's big guy. I think it was one of those plays that looked a lot worse in slow motion replay than it really was. The contact was incidental but looked like a grab in slo-mo.
 
scooter84 said:
I disagreed with the F1 on Gonzaga's big guy. I think it was one of those plays that looked a lot worse in slow motion replay than it really was. The contact was incidental but looked like a grab in slo-mo.
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That's exactly right, only in slo-mo could it look like anything, that F1 was a blown call despite the review. But more egregious were the two obvious out of bounds calls not made, despite refs being in perfect position to see them.
 
TheReff said:
Sure it is fair, but I was watching the same game you were watching and I didn't think the performance was poor. If I was a supervisor of officials for them, I would have evaluated it as a job well done because they kept it under control in a game that was poorly played with many missed shots that lead to many many rebound situations. You put that in there and all the times both teams are going to the hole and it makes for many decisions to have to make as to whether or not to blow the whistle. With both teams have more than the normal amount of huge big guys who are used to crashing the boards & getting offensive rebounds, you will have players being on the backs [not over the backs because that is not a foul--has to be contact]. You also have 2 teams that have guards that drive to the hole and try to create contact so that can make for many decisions one way or another and 50% won't like the way that goes--no whistle or a whistle.

There was a lot of jockeying for position by the big guys--how much of that do you let go & how much is called for freedom of movement? You can't let them go all night! You can't let 300+ pounder Karnowski bull over Meeks, even though we would like that. And you can't let Meeks knock Collins all over the place. There were several swim moves called on Collins that got him in foul trouble and a couple on the backs that were just stupid! He didn't play smart like he did against South Carolina. And as I said, both teams missed 86 FG's--that makes for an extremely messy game, having been on the floor for many of those. So yes, there were some missed calls, but they had no bearing on the game. Even the review was correct and the F! on Karnowski was right. He grabbed him by the neck--had to be made.
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Is there a "black and white zebra shield"? No wonder refs don't get better. Their peers cannot bother to hold them accountable.
 
Playing these games in football stadiums is clearly affecting the offensive performances of these teams. I think everyone should be bitching about that as much as the officiating.
 
Regardless if it's political, sports-related or anything else, whenever the same person always lines up on the supports the same side without fail, they lose all credibility as its clear that each situation is not being independently judged, but that the result is already determined and everything else is just BS to support the pre-determined support of the same position.

No side is always right; no side always has a good game; no side is always mistake free. Reff is incapable of ever finding that the officials have a bad night. While there is no doubt there is a flip-side and it's wrong to always complain about the way a game is called, the reffs had bad game last night. Particularly in the second half, they destroyed the game. Not saying that the Reffs favored UNC, just that they ruined the game.
 
scooter84 said:
I disagreed with the F1 on Gonzaga's big guy. I think it was one of those plays that looked a lot worse in slow motion replay than it really was. The contact was incidental but looked like a grab in slo-mo.
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scooter, I really didn't like it either when watching it in real time. It just looked like regular follow thru action. It was even hard to catch the initial foul on Carolina grabbing the arm on first take. But when you go review these things now, from what I understand from the guys that are doing it, they have no choice on something like that when it is above the shoulders. And in this case it involved a grab around the neck with follow thru to the floor. Put all that on film and it will go to F1 by rule. And Tigers, I don't know what could have improved this game? Shooting was terrible all the way thru, neither team could make FT's either and they both crash the boards and are used to getting their way inside. That is a formula for stop-action. And when the Zags threw that ball away to start the 2nd half, they got in a funk, just like in the semi's against the Gamecocks. It didn't take them quite as long to come out of it because Few called a quicker TO, but it was still 3+ minutes. These 2 teams were missing all kinds of easy shots and at the end of the day, they had 95 credited rebounds to go with 86 missed FG's. That is atrocious play.
 
Pilchard said:
Regardless if it's political, sports-related or anything else, whenever the same person always lines up on the supports the same side without fail, they lose all credibility as its clear that each situation is not being independently judged, but that the result is already determined and everything else is just BS to support the pre-determined support of the same position.

No side is always right; no side always has a good game; no side is always mistake free. Reff is incapable of ever finding that the officials have a bad night. While there is no doubt there is a flip-side and it's wrong to always complain about the way a game is called, the reffs had bad game last night. Particularly in the second half, they destroyed the game. Not saying that the Reffs favored UNC, just that they ruined the game.
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So Pilch, let me ask you this since you are "all-knowing" about basketball--what calls in that game would you not have called? There were only 22 fouls called total and with 86 missed FG's that is a lot of rebounds to go after. So just saying since you know it ALL? I am saying the play of the players ruined the game. The officials were just there for the ride of a bad game and had to blow their whistle to keep it in line--otherwise it is street ball with a bunch of tall guys crashing and a bunch of guards going to the hole causing contact.

I say the better team still won an ugly basketball game. I watch a game not caring who won, looking at angles and why calls were made or missed. I call them out, right or wrong all game long while watching. Drives my wife crazy because I run them back with the DVR to see what they were. 90% of the time they were correct.
That is why they are in those leagues and in the NCAA's and at the Final Four.

So Pilch, go back and tell me the calls in the game you are going to leave out and be objective! Tell me the extra calls that should have been made also because I saw a few that still could have been made. But in the end they had no bearing on the game--the teams missed 105 shots!
 
TheReff said:
So Pilch, let me ask you this since you are "all-knowing" about basketball--what calls in that game would you not have called? There were only 22 fouls called total and with 86 missed FG's that is a lot of rebounds to go after. So just saying since you know it ALL? I am saying the play of the players ruined the game. The officials were just there for the ride of a bad game and had to blow their whistle to keep it in line--otherwise it is street ball with a bunch of tall guys crashing and a bunch of guards going to the hole causing contact.

I say the better team still won an ugly basketball game. I watch a game not caring who won, looking at angles and why calls were made or missed. I call them out, right or wrong all game long while watching. Drives my wife crazy because I run them back with the DVR to see what they were. 90% of the time they were correct.
That is why they are in those leagues and in the NCAA's and at the Final Four.

So Pilch, go back and tell me the calls in the game you are going to leave out and be objective! Tell me the extra calls that should have been made also because I saw a few that still could have been made. But in the end they had no bearing on the game--the teams missed 105 shots!
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The two out of bounds calls: the one in the first half documented in this thread, and the one at the end of the game, where Meeks went out of bounds, came back in, and was the first player to force the jump ball. Hicks scored immediately afterwards to put UNC up 3, and I'm fairly confident UNC scored after the first half no-call as well.

That's 4 points, and could have been the difference in the game. Please explain.
 
TheReff said:
scooter, I really didn't like it either when watching it in real time. It just looked like regular follow thru action. It was even hard to catch the initial foul on Carolina grabbing the arm on first take. But when you go review these things now, from what I understand from the guys that are doing it, they have no choice on something like that when it is above the shoulders. And in this case it involved a grab around the neck with follow thru to the floor. Put all that on film and it will go to F1 by rule. And Tigers, I don't know what could have improved this game? Shooting was terrible all the way thru, neither team could make FT's either and they both crash the boards and are used to getting their way inside. That is a formula for stop-action. And when the Zags threw that ball away to start the 2nd half, they got in a funk, just like in the semi's against the Gamecocks. It didn't take them quite as long to come out of it because Few called a quicker TO, but it was still 3+ minutes. These 2 teams were missing all kinds of easy shots and at the end of the day, they had 95 credited rebounds to go with 86 missed FG's. That is atrocious play.
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This is what I disagree with. In slow motion it looked like a 'grab around the neck' - in real time, and in reality, his hand hit the neck area briefly and incidentally and he then pulled it back.

The two out of bounds calls were pretty bad as well and I easily saw the first one in real time and couldn't believe they missed it (they never showed a replay). After that play my wife and I looked at each other and said 'are you kidding me?' Those are the ones that really cause the officials to lose their credibility.
 
TheReff said:
So Pilch, let me ask you this since you are "all-knowing" about basketball--what calls in that game would you not have called? There were only 22 fouls called total and with 86 missed FG's that is a lot of rebounds to go after. So just saying since you know it ALL? I am saying the play of the players ruined the game. The officials were just there for the ride of a bad game and had to blow their whistle to keep it in line--otherwise it is street ball with a bunch of tall guys crashing and a bunch of guards going to the hole causing contact.

I say the better team still won an ugly basketball game. I watch a game not caring who won, looking at angles and why calls were made or missed. I call them out, right or wrong all game long while watching. Drives my wife crazy because I run them back with the DVR to see what they were. 90% of the time they were correct.
That is why they are in those leagues and in the NCAA's and at the Final Four.

So Pilch, go back and tell me the calls in the game you are going to leave out and be objective! Tell me the extra calls that should have been made also because I saw a few that still could have been made. But in the end they had no bearing on the game--the teams missed 105 shots!
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There were 44 fouls called.

scooter84 said:
This is what I disagree with. In slow motion it looked like a 'grab around the neck' - in real time, and in reality, his hand hit the neck area briefly and incidentally and he then pulled it back.

The two out of bounds calls were pretty bad as well and I easily saw the first one in real time and couldn't believe they missed it (they never showed a replay). After that play my wife and I looked at each other and said 'are you kidding me?' Those are the ones that really cause the officials to lose their credibility.
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A couple of calls I thought were bad, CBS failed to show replays as well. One was Berry's 4 point play in the 1st half. Looked like he flopped or threw his legs out to initiate contact. Couldn't tell without a replay. Would have liked to see the replay of the 5th foul on Collins too. It was on a rebound, but don't remember more than that other than it being ticky-tack if a foul at all. Also agree with those that say that the officials biggest crime was sucking the flow out of the game, not necessarily favoring one side over the other.
 
As stated above, the refs wanted to be the center of attention apparently, because they took the game away from the players with so many whistles. Zags were shooting double bonus with over 10 minutes left in the 2nd half- not sure I have ever seen that. Calls were missed both ways for sure. Refs said Pinson touched an air ball by Zag player, which replay shows he did not, and Zags scored a 3 because of that missed call, and then the play documented above on Meeks out of bounds. I don't like the stoppage of play rule, because they take 5 minutes on an easy call, which completely destroys the flow of the game. The poorest played and poorest reefed game I have ever seen as a National Championship game....
 
One of the most poorly played championship games I can recall. Not representative of the best in college basketball. I do think that playing in football stadiums impacts the offensive performances. But anything for money.
 
zqglass said:
Playing these games in football stadiums is clearly affecting the offensive performances of these teams. I think everyone should be bitching about that as much as the officiating.
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This. These domes suck for basketball. Just stop. Terrible game.
 
This must be a UNC thing.

Where's that video of Joel Berry or the other guard, taking John Collins right out of the game in the first minute of the second half in the LJVM?

We could have beaten the Nat Champs, but Berry fell on the back of John Collins' legs and knocked Collins to the ground. Collins had no idea anyone was behind him.

Foul on Collins.
 
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