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Rolling Stone Article on UVA rape culture

WakeandBake said:
yep. Women need to feel comfortable with reporting immediately. The support of men like us is key to that.
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True, but not as important as having some basic knowledge as to what you need to do if you want to do something. Remember you're dealing with a lot of sheltered kids without a great deal of common sense who are suddenly living on their own. Part of that 1st week on campus should contain the stuff we've been talking about for both women and men with prevention strategies. And it goes beyond frat parties. Look at the now famous 2 murders here in Cville. Friends shouldn't let trashed friends leave JPJ arena alone. And don't let your trashed friends wander around the streets of Cville in the middle of the night.

I get why UVA and other schools don't necessarily want to publicize information like this and why they are reticent to give out their crime stats. It's bad for business. But if you change the industry model and get everyone to buy in, you'd make all campuses a lot safer.
 
cville deac said:
It's not necessarily the prosecution of the crimes thereof. Administratively as a school, once you have your disciplinary hearing, you should expel the offending student - in contrast to what UVA apparently does. That's what the school can do.

From a criminal prosecution perspective, cops and prosecutors generally hate acquaintance rape cases for 2 reasons - they're extremely hard to win, and the victim often backs out midway through. From the article, it sounds like a lot of victims call friends and/or go back to their dorm rooms/apartments. And if they are going to report it, they report it to the university rep sometime later. You have almost no hope of a criminal prosecution at that point. If you want to prosecute an acquaintance rape case, you've got to go straight to the hospital or school medical center, do the rape kit, take pictures and have the medical folks call the police. Imagine yourself as a juror in such a case. If all you see/hear is fairly credible testimony from both the victim and defendant without any physical evidence, you're not going to convict that defendant. But if you also have testimony from a cop, a doc and photos of her in a roughed up state, then you have something winnable. And the school as part of freshmen indoctrination should be providing women with information on what services are available through the school and on where to go and how to report criminally these cases if that's the route they want to pursue.
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A student of mine went through this. I got an email from her saying she was sorry she missed class because she had been sexually assaulted the night before and was at the campus police department doing the rape kit, giving a statement, etc through the early morning. I had to wonder how many other students have gone through the same thing and just kept it to themselves.
 
DirtySouthDeacon said:
Who would want to be friends/brothers with a bunch of guys who gang rape an 18year old at a party. I dont care how cool you "think" some dude is, when he asks you to join his gang rape, you beat his ass. WTF??
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Apparently the assholes in that particular chapter of a national fraternity (I've never heard of them).
 
I love how incensed all of you guys are getting about this... but the sad, sad truth is that it's incredibly difficult to bring "if we're supportive, they'll be able to feel comfortable reporting!" to practice. There are so many massive mind-fucks that come with being raped; Jackie did a good job of bringing that to light. The initial reaction is not necessarily "this just happened to me" but rather, "what did I do wrong that I brought this upon myself?" Especially in a situation that is 'normal' (like an on-campus party). Making yourself a known and vocal supporter of women is huge, and it'll be nice when it's actually and legitimately 'cool' to be that guy. Until then, I suspect that it will remain a painfully quiet issue on many campuses.

That said, and this is also really sad that this needs to happen, but guys need to be suspended or expelled for this behavior. Absolutely. Until the consequences are as severe as they need to be (and screw you if you think expulsion is too harsh), it will be difficult to make some guys recognize this as a serious and heinous offense and not just some shits-and-giggles 'we don't talk about this outside these walls' activity.
 
to piggy back, it's pretty unsurprising that the focus of the conversation is "let's fix the prosecution side" and not "let's address the way we think about women"
 
expulsion is just the beginning of what these guys deserve.

don't think anyone here is saying being a survivor or rape is not a huge mind f*ck. i can't imagine the strength necessary to come through the other side of something like this. much respect to her for continuing to survive and try and move foward. certainly a ton of respect for speaking and working to help others.

i can't imagine a culture where large groups of people just look the other way. i can't imagine that you could get 9 guys to agree to raping a woman. it's mind boggling.


hasn't everyone on the planet learned by now that it's not the crime, it's the cover up? the cover up is always far more damaging than the crime. uva administration and board of trustees (other schools as well) should be ashamed. they should not be able to sleep at night because so many have been looking the other way for so long. truly depressing that so many young women have been assaulted and had their lives ruined because of the CYA attitude that these people have practiced for so long.
 
ImTheCaptain said:
to piggy back, it's pretty unsurprising that the focus of the conversation is "let's fix the prosecution side" and not "let's address the way we think about women"
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These guys have mothers, grandmothers, sisters, cousins, and friends who are female. Something about how to respect and properly treat women is not getting through to them. Let them see the inside of the state pen.
 
BiffTannen said:
These guys have mothers, grandmothers, sisters, cousins, and friends who are female. Something about how to respect and properly treat women is not getting through to them. Let them see the inside of the state pen.
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A lot of women derive their power from their association with powerful men and they have learned themselves and have taught others not to disturb the system in fear that they may lose more than they gain.

It's one way a patriarchy protects itself.
 
PhDeac said:
A lot of women derive their power from their association with powerful men and they have learned themselves and have taught others not to disturb the system in fear that they may lose more than they gain.

It's one way a patriarchy protects itself.
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Ray Rice situation for example?
 
iodeac said:
Ray Rice situation for example?
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Yes. At a dyadic level.

In a university setting, the fraternity and sorority system sets this up. The article describes it. Jackie and her female friends fear that they won't be allowed in fraternity parties anymore. Her guy friends are afraid their association with her could hurt them getting a bid. Fraternities host parties and dominate the social scene. If sororities hosted parties and controlled the environment, where people go, what people drink, at a larger percentage of events, I definitely think rape would be less prevalent on campus.
 
meandmyuncleDeac said:
Please assure me that such incidents do not occur at MSD.
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Never heard of something like this, did hear of date rape sitch.

They did scare the living SHIT out of my hall freshman year, basically saying if you hook up w/ a chick and she's had a beer, you've raped her.
 
Go said:
Never heard of something like this, did hear of date rape sitch.

They did scare the living SHIT out of my hall freshman year, basically saying if you hook up w/ a chick and she's had a beer, you've raped her.
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I remember that, then the 3rd day of school me and my hallmate went over to bostwick and tried to do a power hour with two chicks he met the might before. He ended up dating his chick for 2 years, but my chick fell asleep during my first muff diving expedition.

Lucky for them we were gentleman, because that girl was pretty much rolling the dice that im not an asshole
 
I'm not shocked about rape occurring or about a bunch of 18 year olds making poor decisions about not reporting for fear of social status, but it appalls me that 7 dudes (even if it wasn't 7, it was still multiple dudes) could conspire to do something so rotten. This isn't simply drunk awkwardness or drunk sexual aggression. It is a plan to trap a girl in the dark so she can't recognize faces and rape her multiple times. Kudos to the girl for doing her best to even survive such an episode in her head.

It reminded me of a story at Wake that I was not a witness to but involved people I knew my freshman year. In that case, it involved one guy raping a girl who was passed out in her own bed, the act being witnessed, and apparently nothing being done about it because the girl dropped out of school shortly thereafter and the assailant ended up graduating with my class. Oddly enough, he is now a lawyer. I had forgotten about that story, but was reminded of it within the last year. I probably blew it off as an 18 year old since it didn't involve anything I personally witnessed and therefore wasn't something to involve myself in, particularly since the perpetrator could've easily beaten my ass. But when the story was relayed back to me, I was told that I, along with my friend, had helped walk this girl across campus back to her room before I disappeared for bong hits. A third friend apparently followed us and snuck into the room when he thought nobody would notice. The girl issuing the bong hits was the one who witnessed it. Much different from the UVA story, obviously, but the end result is still a shattered girl and no consequence for the individual who committed the crime.
 
UVA is a weird place. I had buddies there when I was at Wake, and I was friends with some guys in law school that were a member of these 'top tier' frats. They defs have a different culture there, and that isnt a compliment.

I feel sorry for this girl and every victim of sexual assault, but the sensationalized quotes in this article make it hard to believe. Kids, humans just dont talk and act like that.

Who the fuck says something like "are you worried about tarnishing UVA".

I can tell you the last thing on a self centered frat kid's mind is the integrity of the administration.

Douche UVA culture and all, though I am really disappointed in kids and humanity in general if frat kids would randomly gang rape a sober freshman who had just walked into a party, and then argue about their own reputation as they considered whether to take her to a hospital. As is the story with all of these cases, there are always conflicting stories and the truth is usually somewhere in between.

I can assuredly tell you that a rape culture certainly does not exist in Wake greek life, even in the 'top tier' frats. I was aware of 2 sexual assaults from my time at Wake, one that took place at an off campus house the year before I was a freshman, and one that occurred when I was either a junior or senior. In both cases, the culprits were convicted and the one in which the perp was a student was kicked out of school.
 
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WakeandBake said:
And I think one of the keys to that is men like the ones on this thread who are reviled by this shit, who she would know would come to her aide and defense. Who would stand by her for reporting (if we could resist going into the frat house and spraying bullets). Her male friends were pussies, more worried about ratting out the frat system than helping her and, in turn, the next victims. WGAF if your friend has been raped? Fuck the frat system at that point.
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You might want to rephrase that sentence.
 
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