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Second Dem Saturday debate, going up against the NFL and opening weekend of Star Wars

Shooshmoo said:
Do I trust any politician? No. Do I trust Hillary more than anyone on the other side? Absolutely.
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You agree with Hillary's apparent stances. You can't possibly believe anything she says. Just say what you mean.
 
Bob Kerry once said Bill Clinton is an unusually good liar. Hillary is no slouch either.
 
Shooshmoo said:
Did you look at the link I posted -- I believe more of what she says than any other candidate?
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Political leanings aside, you're referring to her relative integrity? With any confidence at all?

Versus Rand Paul, for instance? John Kasich?

eta: If so, Holy Cow, this seems fun. Let me try. All politicians overeat. That said, I trust Chris Christie's dietary discipline more so than that of any other candidate on the other side.
 
TownieDeac said:
Quick Google search shows:

She has reversed her positions on gay marriage, immigration, gun control, the Trans-Pacific Partnership trade pact, mass incarceration and the Iraq War, and some believe her recent stand on the Keystone XL pipeline constitutes a flip, too.

I can forgive gay marriage, because that was a social shift in America that is unparalleled in my lifetime. Most of the rest are really bad.
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Which I see all of this as perfectly fine in contrast to the current Republican field leader and many of the other candidates where sure they might not flip flop and might be speaking what they truly believe, but what they truly believe is crazy.
 
TownieDeac said:
Super unpopular opinion here, but I really don't think we'd be saying a lot of the things we say about Hilary if she were a man. Her aggressiveness and stolid demeanor are befitting of the importance and gravitas of the positions she has held, like Congressperson or Secretary of State. There are lots of reasonable critiques of Hilary (though if you're a fiscal conservative, social liberal, you'd be hard pressed to find them in her platform), but I personally find the personality attacks to be little less than thinly veiled sexism.

Not saying if you dislike Hilary you're a sexist, but come up with more substantive critiques.
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You have yourself later noted the number of position changes she's had. I agree with you that gay marriage is something that most of the country has evolved on over the last decade or so. I also agree the other changes you noted are quite troublesome. I would add free trade to that list because she and Bubba were big NAFTA supporters. That 1 really bugged me a few weeks ago because it was pretty obvious she was doing that to try to move left of Bernie, which was stupid as a campaign tactic because she can't make herself left of Bernie except on guns, and it just fed into the narrative that the only thing she really believes is that she should be president. Add to that both she and Bubba have been ethically challenged and are less honest than your average politician. But I would disagree with Simo that she is a good liar. Bubba was smooth and instinctively knew the right thing to say on any occasion - he really was the most talented politician of our time. She is not similarly gifted and doesn't have his charm and timing. She comes across as forced much of the time, has a tin ear and reacts poorly to criticism. The email scandal was a perfect example. She did violate policy and should have acknowledged it immediately and should have explained why it wasn't a big deal as a practical matter and showed that nothing important leaked out - instead of ignoring it and chalking it up to the right wing conspiracy.

I think there is some truth that a portion of our population is going to react negatively to a "strong" female personality and that that exacerbates her negatives in some folks eyes. But take Elizabeth Warren for example, who similarly has a strong personality. I disagree with her on a couple of policy positions, but I have an overall positive view of her and am happy that there is someone out there with her cred who so actively takes up consumer interests. Also look at my 1st choice for the Dem ticket this year - Gillibrand. She does have a softer personality than Warren or Clinton, but I think she by far would have been the strongest possible Dem candidate in the field. In sum, I agree sexism creeps into the national discussion with Hillary, especially with those who call her Miss Hillary. But I believe she has well earned her high negatives, and that for most of us the reasons we dislike her have nothing to do with sexism.
 
jhmd2000 said:
Political leanings aside, you're referring to her relative integrity? With any confidence at all?

Versus Rand Paul, for instance? John Kasich?

eta: If so, Holy Cow, this seems fun. Let me try. All politicians overeat. That said, I trust Chris Christie's dietary discipline more so than that of any other candidate on the other side.
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Why would I trust anything Rand Paul has to say? And who gives a shit about Kasich. The idea that Hillary somehow lies more than anyone else is a just another Fox News lie.
 
Shooshmoo said:
Why would I trust anything Rand Paul has to say? And who gives a shit about Kasich. The idea that Hillary somehow lies more than anyone else is a just another Fox News lie.
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Well then you deserve the full measure of her integrity when she's elected. Some of the people, all of the time, indeed.
 
Ronald Reagan was a lying sack of shit and you people have exalted him to almost Godlike status.

GTFO with your righteous indignation over Hillary and Bill Clinton, and your armchair 'integrity.' Completely disingenuous political prattling. I fart in your general direction.
 
WakeandBake said:
Ronald Reagan was a lying sack of shit and you people have exalted him to almost Godlike status.

GTFO with your righteous indignation over Hillary and Bill Clinton, with your armchair 'integrity.' Completely disingenuous political prattling. I fart in your general direction.
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The anger is a tell.
 
No anger here. Just pointing out what a boob you are with all this hand-wringing over the Clinton lies. Nice defense of your boy Ronnie and his lies, by the way.
 
DeacLaw05 said:
I have never voted for a Democrat for President. Probably never will. But there is no way on God's green earth that I will ever cast a vote for Donald Trump for any elective office, much less President of the United States. It goes without saying that he is entirely untrustworthy and unfit to hold any public trust.

I'm having a hard time understanding why principled Democrats are going to hold their noses and support Hillary. She's "credentialed," I know, but she's an ethical trainwreck. Supreme Court appointments aren't a good enough reason to give the keys to the Democrats' Nixon.
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If she Watergate's herself and has Castro there as her VP then i would be more likely to vote for her.
 
Shooshmoo said:
Ok, Mr. Integrity. Who are you voting for?
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Listen, I think a defensible case can be made for Hillary, in this clogged urinal of a field. I don't think her best argument is that she's the most honest. She may not crack the top ten in that department.

If the election was tomorrow and everybody still left in was running, I would probably vote for Jeb. I'm an establishment Pub and he's the most qualified person that fits that description. I would have no problem voting for Rand Paul and I like Rubio's optimistic message and his example.
 
WakeandBake said:
Ronald Reagan was a lying sack of shit and you people have exalted him to almost Godlike status.

GTFO with your righteous indignation over Hillary and Bill Clinton, and your armchair 'integrity.' Completely disingenuous political prattling. I fart in your general direction.
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A distinct upgrade from your posts.
 
jhmd2000 said:
Listen, I think a defensible case can be made for Hillary, in this clogged urinal of a field. I don't think her best argument is that she's the most honest. She may not crack the top ten in that department.

If the election was tomorrow and everybody still left in was running, I would probably vote for Jeb. I'm an establishment Pub and he's the most qualified person that fits that description. I would have no problem voting for Rand Paul and I like Rubio's optimistic message and his example.
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1213-web-HOLAN-600.png


With brown being false and blue being true, which bar represents Hillary?
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/13/o...p=pay&smvar=mapage&ad-keywords=SocialRem&_r=0
 
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honesty is an overrated quality of presidential candidates. Its a game of dirty pool out there. The overly honest candidate will just get run over by the powerbrokers. See Shrub for instance.

I want my President to be honest, but not too honest.
 
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