Should Manning be canned at the end of the season?

[pourdeac]

If he gets...
KP 50
18 wins
8 ACC wins
ACCT 2nd day
and NCAA play-in

He will still be employed at WFU in the fall of 2019.

Easily, as long as recruiting keeps up. It's hard not to lower expectations a little when you lose some program momentum. Manning still doesn't have any ACC starter quality seniors does he? He lost the entire front court last year, two of them early...which created huge unexpected gaps. They're going to give him a lot of time.

 

[PhDeac]

Or you could say Mucius is ranked about where Crawford was and he led the team in minutes his freshman year.

We don’t know how much playing time anyone will get next year. We don’t even know what the roster will look like.

Because CMM was out much of the season and worse than Crawford anyway. All the guards played a lot of minutes because Manning likes to play 3 guard lineups even more than he doesn’t like to play freshmen.

I just don’t see the minutes for Mucius given what we know about Manning.

Crawford, Childress, and Woods will split all the guard minutes and we will see some 3 guard lineups. Chaundee will play 25-30 min at SF.

Moore and Sarr will split C minutes. Hoard will start at PF. Sarr, Mitchell, and Okeke will split the remaining PF minutes.

Mucius is left with Melo minutes. I’m just saying be prepared.

 

[EatLeadCommie]

Would that convince you that he is a good coach and that the majority of the board has been wrong about him?

No.

People will always try to rationalize failure. This year, it's because we lost no-D Collins and a guy who had a 2 inch vertical and always flamed out in ACC play. That's just an excuse to ignore the lack of depth, development, and leadership in players who have been in the system for multiple years. Nevermind that college hoops doesn't even require multi-year contributors for a program to be successful these days. Teams like Wake should be able to field a decent program year to year because we don't rely on one-and-dones and have rosters full of 4 year, experienced players. But when those players are poorly coached, they don't develop and we end up with guys plateauing after a year at the college level.

 

[Wrangor]

For reference, to convince me I’m wrong about Manning he would have to fail to meet most of the benchmarks below next year:

KP: 40
Overall: 20 wins
ACC: 9 wins
ACCT: Friday appearance
NCAAT: Top 8 seed

Anyone else bitching about supposed “shifting goalposts” want to commit themselves?

I think that is pretty close to my expectations next year as well. I think we are a top 25 team assuming no departures. I think we are 25-40 team if we lose a key piece or two.

 

[RChildress107]

No.

People will always try to rationalize failure. This year, it's because we lost no-D Collins and a guy who had a 2 inch vertical and always flamed out in ACC play. That's just an excuse to ignore the lack of depth, development, and leadership in players who have been in the system for multiple years. Nevermind that college hoops doesn't even require multi-year contributors for a program to be successful these days. Teams like Wake should be able to field a decent program year to year because we don't rely on one-and-dones and have rosters full of 4 year, experienced players. But when those players are poorly coached, they don't develop and we end up with guys plateauing after a year at the college level.

What would convince you? Anything?

Knowing that Wellman is going to keep Manning around regardless (he’d have to have another losing season for Wellman to even think about it) leaves a lot of room for the Manning sucks crowd to bitch and moan without having to set out reasonable measurable expectations and then judge Manning against those.

My guess is we will see a lot of handwaiving over the next few pages and maybe some statements about fundamentals or substitution patterns, but little in the way of committing to actual expectations. People don’t like to admit the possibility they might be wrong.

 

[CreamyGoodness]

If we keep one of our 2 PG's(which we at least will keep 1) and Chaundee/Sarr/Doral, we'll be in good shape. We'll also need Woods as a 6th man IMO.

 

[RChildress107]

No.

People will always try to rationalize failure. This year, it's because we lost no-D Collins and a guy who had a 2 inch vertical and always flamed out in ACC play. That's just an excuse to ignore the lack of depth, development, and leadership in players who have been in the system for multiple years. Nevermind that college hoops doesn't even require multi-year contributors for a program to be successful these days. Teams like Wake should be able to field a decent program year to year because we don't rely on one-and-dones and have rosters full of 4 year, experienced players. But when those players are poorly coached, they don't develop and we end up with guys plateauing after a year at the college level.

We suck this year because Collins left, Manning blew the 2016 class, Manning hasn’t gotten the most out of the pieces he does have, and Collins left. In that order. This season has been a failure. Who’s rationalizing?

 

[RChildress107]

And to be clear my expectations don’t change even if Crawford and Moore leave (they won’t).

 

[deacondamo]

Let Manning lose all his big recruits next year and see how long he lasts !

 

[RChildress107]

Because CMM was out much of the season and worse than Crawford anyway. All the guards played a lot of minutes because Manning likes to play 3 guard lineups even more than he doesn’t like to play freshmen.

I just don’t see the minutes for Mucius given what we know about Manning.

Crawford, Childress, and Woods will split all the guard minutes and we will see some 3 guard lineups. Chaundee will play 25-30 min at SF.

Moore and Sarr will split C minutes. Hoard will start at PF. Sarr, Mitchell, and Okeke will split the remaining PF minutes.

Mucius is left with Melo minutes. I’m just saying be prepared.

In 14-15 58% of our minutes went to player’s 6’6 or taller.

 

[RJKarl]

Anybody think Tom Crean would pick up the phone if Wake Forest called?

Or is he destined to go to the biggest job that opens up at the end of this season?

Just talking hypothetically... I'm in favor of at least one more Manning season.

Tom Crean is the definition of mediocrity. With the assets that IU has, he did OK but nothing more.

 

[DeacsATS]

Because CMM was out much of the season and worse than Crawford anyway. All the guards played a lot of minutes because Manning likes to play 3 guard lineups even more than he doesn’t like to play freshmen.

I just don’t see the minutes for Mucius given what we know about Manning.

Crawford, Childress, and Woods will split all the guard minutes and we will see some 3 guard lineups. Chaundee will play 25-30 min at SF.

Moore and Sarr will split C minutes. Hoard will start at PF. Sarr, Mitchell, and Okeke will split the remaining PF minutes.

Mucius is left with Melo minutes. I’m just saying be prepared.

CMM missed the first 8 games of the season that year. Crawford started every single game (from day 1) except for the game he missed against UCLA. Even when CMM and Crawford were both healthy, Crawford played more minutes per game. Crawford played more than 30 minutes in each of the last 14 games of the season (nobody else was even close). The players that saw their minutes go from a lot to a little when CMM came back were Trent Van Horn & Greg McClinton.

I'd argue that it is silly to distribute minutes without:
1- Knowing the full roster for next season.
2- Knowing the skill level / readiness of incoming players.

Wing (especially an athletic wing) has been a huge hole for us for a long, long time... If Hoard, Mucius, and Brown are all worthy of playing time, I think Manning will find a way to get them all on the floor.

Agree that Manning seems to like playing 3 (or more) guards, but we have no evidence of how that changes when we have a roster of capable wings.

I like Melo, but it could just be that isn't ready to prime time just yet... Mucius may be... Their rankings reflect that isn't a stretch, but we'll have to wait and see.

 

[EatLeadCommie]

What would convince you? Anything?

Knowing that Wellman is going to keep Manning around regardless (he’d have to have another losing season for Wellman to even think about it) leaves a lot of room for the Manning sucks crowd to bitch and moan without having to set out reasonable measurable expectations and then judge Manning against those.

My guess is we will see a lot of handwaiving over the next few pages and maybe some statements about fundamentals or substitution patterns, but little in the way of committing to actual expectations. People don’t like to admit the possibility they might be wrong.

Is it possible that Manning learns how to coach next year? I suppose it's possible that a light goes off in his head. In the meantime, we've been a testing ground for OTJ training, which we shouldn't be.

I'd like to see a team that plays some semblance of defense and has some kind of identity. As boring as Odom's teams were (and often overrated defensively), they at least had a system in place so that you knew when you lost X player, Y would be able to step in and competently fill X's shoes, even if he wasn't X. We could win because his teams could always shoot the three ball and games were usually lower scoring and thus closer. This is opposed to Manning's teams who play no D, playground O, and run out of gas in the last 10 minutes of games because they're too busy wasting energy from their lack of discipline on both sides of the ball.

How this team performs next year will be contingent on the usual things like player development, coaching, and the strength of the ACC overall. Manning could meet all those benchmarks and field a borderline top 25 team and still not be a competent coach because his team continues to do the same stupid shit. Or he could not meet those expectations but put out a team that is consistently competitive. plays hard for 40 minutes, and plays competent defense.

My guess is it will be more of the same shit we've seen so far, but obviously (or hopefully) a better season than this one has been.

 

[DeacsATS]

Tom Crean is the definition of mediocrity. With the assets that IU has, he did OK but nothing more.

I'd kill for the mediocrity that Tom Crean had at IU. Hell of a rebuild, in my opinion.

2009: 209KP
2010: 194
2011: 82
2012: 9
2013: 3
2014: 63
2015: 48
2016: 11
2017: 44
2018: 81 (w/ Archie Miller)

 

[tigerswood]

KP: Don't Care
Overall: 20+ wins
ACC: Winning Record
ACCT: Win at least 1 game
NCAAT: 8 seed or better - win at least one game

 

[CantStandYa]

What would convince you? Anything?

Knowing that Wellman is going to keep Manning around regardless (he’d have to have another losing season for Wellman to even think about it) leaves a lot of room for the Manning sucks crowd to bitch and moan without having to set out reasonable measurable expectations and then judge Manning against those.

My guess is we will see a lot of handwaiving over the next few pages and maybe some statements about fundamentals or substitution patterns, but little in the way of committing to actual expectations. People don’t like to admit the possibility they might be wrong.

Flip side: what would convince you that Manning isn't the answer and the best choice is to move on?

 

[CantStandYa]

And to answer your question, there's little that can happen next year, short of a deep run and ACC dominance, that would convince me that Manning is capable.

The ability to sustain success over multiple years is more indicative than a single season (i.e. climate vs. weather). The strength lies in the ability to succeed in spite of variables - e.g. early departures, transfers, etc - rather than using them as an excuse for constant mediocrity. If we saw two straight years of ACC competitiveness (.500 record minimum) and NCAAT appearances - and it sure seems like Manning will have that chance - then I'll gladly admit I'm wrong.

 

[JuiceCrewAllStar]

If we keep one of our 2 PG's(which we at least will keep 1).

quite the conditional, my man

 

[RacerDeac]

I reject the idea that XX results and XX ranking next year = Manning is good enough. We have years of evidence that he's not. It would take massive improvements all over the board for him to suddenly become a good enough head coach that we shouldn't be looking for a better replacement. I suppose if he somehow takes next year's team, turns it into a sum greater than its parts and leads us to the Final 4, I'd have to rethink things a bit, but there's very little that's going to convince me that Manning has suddenly turned into an excellent coach sometime during his 16th year on the job, 7th as a head and 5th at Wake.

 

[greekdeac2011]

I don't see Wake winning 20+ games next year or winning an NCAA tournament game. But I also don't see him getting fired unless he has a horrendous season (sub .500).