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So, who transfers? Chennault, Desrosiers, and Fields...

TexasDeac10 said:
I think Townie's point is that, despite what those rankings looked like, the actual situation was far worse than we originally perceived. Some of the blame has to lie with Bz, but just saying "We had top talent! Great classes!" really overlooks fundamental problems with players like Tony Woods, Ari Stewart, JT Terrell, Melvin Tabb, Tony Chennault, Ty Walker, and Carson Desrosiers.

Some of those guys made bone-headed decisions off the court. Some of them were just terrible basketball players. Still others were ranked so highly based on potential, not ability. Either way, they turned out to be far less than their Scout/Rivals ranks would indicate. It's disingenuous to say that Bz didn't inherit a broken program at the time, even if that program looked high and mighty coming off a fine season and an NCAA berth.
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well put sir.
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
Most programs would kill for that level of recruiting, on paper that's a better roster than 9 other teams in the ACC. Too bad those recruits didn't pan out.
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yep. so true. the program had promise when bz took over. the reason the hire made sense is that bz would keep the assistant coaches that were already there and keep what was supposed to be a top tier class of recruits together. he kept the class together, wake kept the assistants, and then...... BOOM. the bottom fell out. Bz didn't tell Tabb and Ty to go steal laptops. Bz didn't buy all of the booze that JT was drinking. Ari wouldn't work hard and decided to transfer with his drinking buddy JT to USC. Bz didn't infuriate Tony Woods to assault his baby momma. Bz didn't hurt TC. Throw JJ & Teague leaving early, and It's unbelievable how many bad breaks Wake's basketball program has had over the past few years. All of those bad breaks and players not living up to the hype is why Wake has been disappointing.
 
djev336 said:
yep. so true. the program had promise when bz took over. the reason the hire made sense is that bz would keep the assistant coaches that were already there and keep what was supposed to be a top tier class of recruits together. he kept the class together, wake kept the assistants, and then...... BOOM. the bottom fell out. Bz didn't tell Tabb and Ty to go steal laptops. Bz didn't buy all of the booze that JT was drinking. Ari wouldn't work hard and decided to transfer with his drinking buddy JT to USC. Bz didn't infuriate Tony Woods to assault his baby momma. Bz didn't hurt TC. Throw JJ & Teague leaving early, and It's unbelievable how many bad breaks Wake's basketball program has had over the past few years. All of those bad breaks and players not living up to the hype is why Wake has been disappointing.
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And we have a shitty coach who tells opposing fans to go F themselves. He loses every press conference and does nothing to reach out to the fan base to inspire hope. Furthermore, his resume does not qualify him for the job at Wake Forest.
 
TexasDeac10 said:
I think Townie's point is that, despite what those rankings looked like, the actual situation was far worse than we originally perceived. Some of the blame has to lie with Bz, but just saying "We had top talent! Great classes!" really overlooks fundamental problems with players like Tony Woods, Ari Stewart, JT Terrell, Melvin Tabb, Tony Chennault, Ty Walker, and Carson Desrosiers.

Some of those guys made bone-headed decisions off the court. Some of them were just terrible basketball players. Still others were ranked so highly based on potential, not ability. Either way, they turned out to be far less than their Scout/Rivals ranks would indicate. It's disingenuous to say that Bz didn't inherit a broken program at the time, even if that program looked high and mighty coming off a fine season and an NCAA berth.
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The program wasn't broken. The team as a whole had some glaring weaknesses and a lot of our talent had various issues. This much is granted and is also true of most teams not named Carolina or Duke. It doesn't mean our program was broken.

Tony's issues were completely his own and no coach could have done anything to prevent what happened. That's the only player I give Bzz a free pass on.

Ari and JT had attitude problems plain and simple. Whatever other issues stemmed from their attitude towards basketball at Wake Forest might have been prevented with a coach who provided discipline along with motivation. Neither of them got this and they suffered for it. It doesn't take them off the hook for their actions but it also doesn't make them much different than many 19 year olds. These were two very talented players who couldve contributed much more to WF with the right direction.

CJ and Travis have proven themselves to be all ACC caliber players

TC's main problem was not having a defined role which he actually fit into. He is an ACC bench player who couldve been starting his senior year. Unfortunately due to the aformentioned attrition he wasn't able to be just that.

Ty and Carson have confidence issues, though Ty's was in all honesty probably incurable by the time Bzz got here.

I'm still not really sure what happened with Melvin Tabb. I'm from raleigh and from everything I heard about the him from people in the area he was a great kid.

All that being said here is what our "broken program" had to offer to a coach willing to invest in the kids already here and put in the work.

Two all ACC caliber players (CJ and Travis)
Two talented scorers (JTT and Ari)
1 Defensive Center and 1 Offensive Center( Ty and Carson)

A bench with a veteran shooting guard, and highly ranked freshman PF and back up PG.

That's not the makings of a championship team but it's also not a broken program.
 
I saw Tabb a couple of times in high school and never thought he looked very good. Despite his size, he seemed to be a guy who disappeared and preferred to hang out around the perimeter. He was clearly not a leader on his team and, truthfully, never looked like the best player on the court. I never could figure out why he was so highly ranked, because he just looked like a future bust to me.

All that said, those observations were based solely on his game and had nothing to do with his head. I had no idea the guy was so into poop.
 
TexasDeac10 said:
I think Townie's point is that, despite what those rankings looked like, the actual situation was far worse than we originally perceived. Some of the blame has to lie with Bz, but just saying "We had top talent! Great classes!" really overlooks fundamental problems with players like Tony Woods, Ari Stewart, JT Terrell, Melvin Tabb, Tony Chennault, Ty Walker, and Carson Desrosiers.

Some of those guys made bone-headed decisions off the court. Some of them were just terrible basketball players. Still others were ranked so highly based on potential, not ability. Either way, they turned out to be far less than their Scout/Rivals ranks would indicate. It's disingenuous to say that Bz didn't inherit a broken program at the time, even if that program looked high and mighty coming off a fine season and an NCAA berth.
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It's not "disingenuous". Bz did NOT inherit a "broken program", but it's broken now...

djev336 said:
yep. so true. the program had promise when bz took over. the reason the hire made sense is that bz would keep the assistant coaches that were already there and keep what was supposed to be a top tier class of recruits together. he kept the class together, wake kept the assistants, and then...... BOOM. the bottom fell out. Bz didn't tell Tabb and Ty to go steal laptops. Bz didn't buy all of the booze that JT was drinking. Ari wouldn't work hard and decided to transfer with his drinking buddy JT to USC. Bz didn't infuriate Tony Woods to assault his baby momma. Bz didn't hurt TC. Throw JJ & Teague leaving early, and It's unbelievable how many bad breaks Wake's basketball program has had over the past few years. All of those bad breaks and players not living up to the hype is why Wake has been disappointing.
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So I guess Bz is not incompetent. He's just unlucky. Well if that's the case we need to get this Jonah away from the program.

RChildress107 said:
The program wasn't broken. The team as a whole had some glaring weaknesses and a lot of our talent had various issues. This much is granted and is also true of most teams not named Carolina or Duke. It doesn't mean our program was broken.

Tony's issues were completely his own and no coach could have done anything to prevent what happened. That's the only player I give Bzz a free pass on.

Ari and JT had attitude problems plain and simple. Whatever other issues stemmed from their attitude towards basketball at Wake Forest might have been prevented with a coach who provided discipline along with motivation. Neither of them got this and they suffered for it. It doesn't take them off the hook for their actions but it also doesn't make them much different than many 19 year olds. These were two very talented players who couldve contributed much more to WF with the right direction.

CJ and Travis have proven themselves to be all ACC caliber players

TC's main problem was not having a defined role which he actually fit into. He is an ACC bench player who couldve been starting his senior year. Unfortunately due to the aformentioned attrition he wasn't able to be just that.

Ty and Carson have confidence issues, though Ty's was in all honesty probably incurable by the time Bzz got here.

I'm still not really sure what happened with Melvin Tabb. I'm from raleigh and from everything I heard about the him from people in the area he was a great kid.

All that being said here is what our "broken program" had to offer to a coach willing to invest in the kids already here and put in the work.

Two all ACC caliber players (CJ and Travis)
Two talented scorers (JTT and Ari)
1 Defensive Center and 1 Offensive Center( Ty and Carson)

A bench with a veteran shooting guard, and highly ranked freshman PF and back up PG.

That's not the makings of a championship team but it's also not a broken program.
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+1 You're making too much sense. Logic does not work on those who drank of Wellman's Kool-aid. But you are right, some coaches get players to play to their potential and then mold them into a team that plays better than the sum of the parts. When Bz gets through with them, we need to put 7 players on the floor to be able to compete. Leadership matters.
 
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the same people who tried to rationalize why Bzzz's resume really wasn't "that bad" when he was hired are the same people who try to rationalize why all the aspects of our program going to crap have nothing to do with him.

And the losing records continue to pile up.
 
If we hadn't lost Ari, Melvin and JT, we'd be a far better team. Perhaps a more relatable coach would've led them to a better outcome.
 
I.assume the chances of us using Tony's ship on one year of Alex Orihaki (spell fail) from uconn are slim to none, right? I think he can transfer without sitting out a year due to their academic ncaa ban next year.
 
Originally Posted by TexasDeac10
I think Townie's point is that, despite what those rankings looked like, the actual situation was far worse than we originally perceived. Some of the blame has to lie with Bz, but just saying "We had top talent! Great classes!" really overlooks fundamental problems with players like Tony Woods, Ari Stewart, JT Terrell, Melvin Tabb, Tony Chennault, Ty Walker, and Carson Desrosiers.

Some of those guys made bone-headed decisions off the court. Some of them were just terrible basketball players. Still others were ranked so highly based on potential, not ability. Either way, they turned out to be far less than their Scout/Rivals ranks would indicate. It's disingenuous to say that Bz didn't inherit a broken program at the time, even if that program looked high and mighty coming off a fine season and an NCAA berth.


well put sir.
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I'll second that !
 
Based on what Bzz inherited this is the starting 5 we could have put on the floor this year.

CJ
JTT
Ari
Travis
Carson

Bench: Nikita, Ty, Tabb, TC, Chase

Based on observed talent that's not a bad team. It's not a great team but that lineup get's you to .500 in the ACC and in the bubble conversation.

More importantly here's the roster for next year (I'm assuming in this scenario that Fields and either Washington/Cavanaugh don't get schollies)

CJ, CMM, TC
JTT, Chase
Mckie, Moto, Tree
Tabb, Thomas, Cavanaugh
Carson

That's a tournament team and is at least a plausible scenario that couldve unfolded after Dino left. A more relatable coach might have lost all the same players and gotten us into the exact same hole. At least we could say he did everything he could to keep those guys and mold them into better people and players.

I don't think I can say the same thing for Bzz. Can you?
 
9+ transfers/defections in 5 seasons of coaching....

At some point it's the coach and not the kids.
 
Stormfury said:
9+ transfers/defections in 5 seasons of coaching....

At some point it's the coach and not the kids.
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Ha. I don't think so. In case you haven't heard, Coach Jeff inherits jobs no one else wants, and then has to turn them around. It's not easy spending 90% of your time on 10% of the players, and if you had ever built anything successful, you would know that. But thanks for the input and have a good night, BUDDY.


P.S. **** you.
 
It's never his fault
It's never his faullllttttt
Always the victim
It's never Buzz's fault!

 
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OldGoldBeard said:
Ha. I don't think so. In case you haven't heard, Coach Jeff inherits jobs no one else wants, and then has to turn them around. It's not easy spending 90% of your time on 10% of the players, and if you had ever built anything successful, you would know that. But thanks for the input and have a good night, BUDDY.


P.S. **** you.
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oh heaven's yes!
 
I concur with DV7 but the one thing I'd like to add - the one solace of the Bz hire - is that he seems to be a decent talent evaluator. Best case scenario is that he gets fired after next season, CMM and Thomas don't transfer, and we hire a coach who can do something with what Bz put in place.
 
Jroc25 said:
I concur with DV7 but the one thing I'd like to add - the one solace of the Bz hire - is that he seems to be a decent talent evaluator. Best case scenario is that he gets fired after next season, CMM and Thomas don't transfer, and we hire a coach who can do something with what Bz put in place.
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His first class hasn't shown any "diamonds in the rough", and his 2nd class still hasn't played a minute of college ball. I'll hold off on declaring him a great talent evaluator for a bit. Fingers crossed that he is and that next year's class is something a new coach can use to quickly get us back to the top of the ACC.
 
It's pretty clear that TC had enough of our negative fans and this thread is real proof of it.
 
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