State of the Buzz - End of Year Three (Regular Season)

[pourdeac]

Lots of stuff in here that i presume has been copied and pasted from the past two years.

Not copied and pasted as all and I'm not sure why you think that the case. What happened this year is what one might expect from a team playing what....7 freshmen in the top 9 rotation? We rarely field a team without 3 freshman on the floor, meaning 3 mistake makers with little experience just out of high school. Great recipe for success....and yet the best team of the 3 years rating wise, isn't it?

 

[Strickland33]

And the sample group is decidedly one-sided.

I suppose? How many die-hard Wake basketball fans are there, though? I can think of maybe ten legit Buzz-Inners on the other board, and that's really it. So, give Buzz-in another 20 votes and Buzz-out another 100. How does that change anything?

Hell, give Buzz-in another 50 votes (there can't be more than that who would vote in an online poll [minus tampering], right?) and Buzz-out another 100 and you've still got 13.3% BuzzIn vs. 86.7% BuzzOut.

 

[RacerDeac]

Not copied and pasted as all and I'm not sure why you think that the case. What happened this year is what one might expect from a team playing what....7 freshmen in the top 9 rotation? We rarely field a team without 3 freshman on the floor, meaning 3 mistake makers with little experience just out of high school. Great recipe for success....and yet the best team of the 3 years rating wise, isn't it?

1) The age of the team is Bz's fault.
2) There are plenty of examples of young teams with more success than us.
3) Even young ACC level players should be better than seniors for schools like Iona, etc on skill alone. Even better if our coach is the X's and O's genius that he claims.
4) Best Buzz team, sure, but still one of the worst ever ACC teams. Considering what you're comparing to. Improving from epically bad to only really really really bad isn't cause for giving a coach another 2 seasons to move us "up" to really bad.

 

[HailToTheDeacons]

250-3-4-4

Wow.

 

[PhDeac]

Even those of us pessimistic from the beginning based on his track record had no idea it could be THIS bad. My worst case was NIT bubble teams. I thought we'd see some better basketball IQ but less talent. This is a complete abomination.

 

[DeacsNDayton]

If we were to watch Wake play, not knowing Bz's stats from previous year, personality, etc, and just looked at how the team on the floor performed as if it were the first time, what would we think about Bz;s ability then? Well, we know the stats so my opinion will have some of that as a basis, can't help that, but here is what I see:

1. An offense whose best shooters are not put in a position to do what they do best, make shots.
2. Bigs out on the wing instead of being in a position to rebound constantly (Moto/Tree taking 3's).
3. Playing matador defense, not moving their feet and anticipating their opponents next move.
4. When ahead late in games, playing not to lose instead of playing to win (Miami being the exception)
5. Seems to have lost motivation and will to play since Miami game (VT yesterday the exception)

I think these young men are playing with heart and great effort but I feel that Bz often rips their heart out because I do NOT believe he is a good X's & O's coach and he puts them in a position to lose instead of a position to win. I honestly hope that NO player leaves this team, especially if a new coach is put in place. I believe that a new coach can take this group of players plus the incoming frosh and turn them into an NIT team at the VERY LEAST next year and an NCAA team in a couple of years. If Bz, remains we'll be continuing this discussion for as long as he is here. Personally, I will not watch another season of Bz ball.

 

[pourdeac]

1) The age of the team is Bz's fault.
2) There are plenty of examples of young teams with more success than us.
3) Even young ACC level players should be better than seniors for schools like Iona, etc on skill alone. Even better if our coach is the X's and O's genius that he claims.
4) Best Buzz team, sure, but still one of the worst ever ACC teams. Considering what you're comparing to. Improving from epically bad to only really really really bad isn't cause for giving a coach another 2 seasons to move us "up" to really bad.

#1 sure, but it was fit and IMO Wellman's fault.
#2. Plenty of examples? Show me. 6 of 9 players were freshmen in double figures time wise and we still rarely floored teams with less than 3 freshmen. I want to see another example of that without having a team of blue chippers like UK or UNC.
#3. Hypotheticals don't make good arguments. 67% of the team was playing its 3rd game together vs Iona the night after losing a close one to UConn. it is what it is.
#4. No one has those expectations. EPIC red herring.

Please explain how firing Bz is going to get rid of the problem? Wellman would still be here.

 

[deacvision7]

Please explain how firing Bz is going to get rid of the problem? Wellman would still be here.

They should both be fired.

 

[RChildress107]

#1 sure, but it was fit and IMO Wellman's fault.
#2. Plenty of examples? Show me. 6 of 9 players were freshmen in double figures time wise and we still rarely floored teams with less than 3 freshmen. I want to see another example of that without having a team of blue chippers like UK or UNC.
#3. Hypotheticals don't make good arguments. 67% of the team was playing its 3rd game together vs Iona the night after losing a close one to UConn. it is what it is.
#4. No one has those expectations. EPIC red herring.

Please explain how firing Bz is going to get rid of the problem? Wellman would still be here.

In 2006-2007 wake forest had 4 freshman in the top 7 in minutes. And 5 out of 9 players averaging 10 or more minutes were freshman. That team was bad. They finished 17-17 and lost in the first round of the NIT. They finished 87 in kenpom. That's about what I would expect from a freshman laden team without and superstar upperclassmen or blue chip recruits.

We finished 13-18 with a weaker schedule and are currently 40 spots lower in kenpom. This freshman class seems comparable to that one and we were certainly returning more upperclassmen talent than we did in 06-07.

 

[stonz]

1) The age of the team is Bz's fault.
2) There are plenty of examples of young teams with more success than us.
3) Even young ACC level players should be better than seniors for schools like Iona, etc on skill alone. Even better if our coach is the X's and O's genius that he claims.
4) Best Buzz team, sure, but still one of the worst ever ACC teams. Considering what you're comparing to. Improving from epically bad to only really really really bad isn't cause for giving a coach another 2 seasons to move us "up" to really bad.

I agree with your overall point, I just want to mention that Iona is not a great example, as one of their seniors that torched us is a transfer from Arizona. He's one of the better players in the country.

 

[Strickland33]

I agree with your overall point, I just want to mention that Iona is not a great example, as one of their seniors that torched us is a transfer from Arizona. He's one of the better players in the country.

One of them and he wasn't great at Arizona. The other one was from Iona. And Iona has turned out to be very bad at basketball.

 

[stonz]

One of them and he wasn't great at Arizona. The other one was from Iona. And Iona has turned out to be very bad at basketball.

He was the MAAC PoY this year, and Iona is playing for the MAAC title tonight.

 

[thedeacfan]

1) The age of the team is Bz's fault.
2) There are plenty of examples of young teams with more success than us.
3) Even young ACC level players should be better than seniors for schools like Iona, etc on skill alone. Even better if our coach is the X's and O's genius that he claims.
4) Best Buzz team, sure, but still one of the worst ever ACC teams. Considering what you're comparing to. Improving from epically bad to only really really really bad isn't cause for giving a coach another 2 seasons to move us "up" to really bad.

#1 sure, but it was fit and IMO Wellman's fault.
#2. Plenty of examples? Show me. 6 of 9 players were freshmen in double figures time wise and we still rarely floored teams with less than 3 freshmen. I want to see another example of that without having a team of blue chippers like UK or UNC.
#3. Hypotheticals don't make good arguments. 67% of the team was playing its 3rd game together vs Iona the night after losing a close one to UConn. it is what it is.
#4. No one has those expectations. EPIC red herring.

Please explain how firing Bz is going to get rid of the problem? Wellman would still be here.

I agree with Racer that the age of the team is BZ fault so #2 should be moot. But the fact is that other teams do depend heavily on freshmen. BC starts two freshmen that are 2 of their 3 top scorers. Besides the freshmen, there were 3 sophs who started and the major minutes off the bench went to 2 other sophs. Ga Tech was starting 3 freshmen, 1 jr, & 1 senior. Two of the freshmen were their top 2 scorers. 2 other juniors got priority for time off the bench. I'm sure there are numerous other examples.

The fact is that Buzz does NOT make the most of whatever talent he has. The only thing he makes the most of is whatever excuse material is available.

As to #4... Racer is not only the only one with those "expectations". Further, I venture that you are one of the VERY few who thinks that his #4 is a "red herring".

 

[Strickland33]

He was the MAAC PoY this year, and Iona is playing for the MAAC title tonight.

Momo Jones is MAAC PoY. He's a good MAAC basketball player. He also did a pretty solid Tony Chennault impression while at Arizona.

I was referring to Sean Armand, however, the guy who dropped 28 on us including 7/10 from deep who is a junior who has played at Iona for his whole career. He was not a very highly regarded recruit and he is very much a MAAC-caliber player. Momo getting 21 and 6 was not the primary reason we lost the game. Armand going HAM during that 41-8 run was...

Regarding the rest: it's still the MAAC... Iona was 11-7 in conference and 8-6 OOC. They aren't and weren't very good. I watched MAAC basketball regularly for four years when I was in college (Marist, Siena, Iona, Manhattan, and Rider were all relatively close) and no matter how good those teams are or were, they're still the MAAC. Even with Jared Jordan at Marist. Even with Charron Fisher at Niagara. Even with the Thompsons at Rider. Even with Rakim Sanders at Fairfield. It's still MAAC basketball...

 

[pourdeac]

In 2006-2007 wake forest had 4 freshman in the top 7 in minutes. And 5 out of 9 players averaging 10 or more minutes were freshman. That team was bad. They finished 17-17 and lost in the first round of the NIT. They finished 87 in kenpom. That's about what I would expect from a freshman laden team without and superstar upperclassmen or blue chip recruits.

We finished 13-18 with a weaker schedule and are currently 40 spots lower in kenpom. This freshman class seems comparable to that one and we were certainly returning more upperclassmen talent than we did in 06-07.

I don't have the minutes played but.....the returning players in 2006 were Hale (So. 8.5 pts), Drum (Sr, 8.5 pts), and Visser (Sr, 17 pts)...34 points a game spread over 3 players. This year it was CJ and McKie with ~29 points and 2 players who have been running hot and cold in each game and hardly go to guys to carry a team until recently with CJ. That's a fairly big difference on the positive side....when you include the bench players......being able to put a Swinton or Weaver into the game. We could field a team of non-freshmen in 2006. We could not do that this year could we? That means less confidence and more mistakes...period. So IMO there was more O and a fewer errors in 2006 compared to this year. It may not seem like much but who was the 3rd player that contributed as a non-freshman? We needed that soph to step up and there was no one. That killed us, especially early.

In the end that team performed much like this one. 5-11 in the ACC vs 6-12 for this team....and 15-16 overall vs 13-17. That's not a big difference and that team had some distinct numbers advantages. Looks about the same to me....as one might expect, except we got blown out by a team coached by....

 

[pourdeac]

As to #4... Racer is not only the only one with those "expectations". Further, I venture that you are one of the VERY few who thinks that his #4 is a "red herring".

That's the point. No one has expectations of just rising to bad as the pinnacle of Wake bball. I really don't get why that's ALWAYS brought up by the same people all the time. It's a red herring argument.

Wellman wanted a complete repurification of the program and he got it by hiring Bz so that is on Wellman.

 

[TBR]

Not to mention the ACC was much better and I doubt we played such a weak OOC schedule either (Air Force for one).

 

[OldGoldBeard]

I don't have the minutes played but.....the returning players in 2006 were Hale (So. 8.5 pts), Drum (Sr, 8.5 pts), and Visser (Sr, 17 pts)...34 points a game spread over 3 players. This year it was CJ and McKie with ~29 points and 2 players who have been running hot and cold in each game and hardly go to guys to carry a team until recently with CJ. That's a fairly big difference on the positive side....when you include the bench players......being able to put a Swinton or Weaver into the game. We could field a team of non-freshmen in 2006. We could not do that this year could we? That means less confidence and more mistakes...period. So IMO there was more O and a fewer errors in 2006 compared to this year. It may not seem like much but who was the 3rd player that contributed as a non-freshman? We needed that soph to step up and there was no one. That killed us, especially early.

In the end that team performed much like this one. 5-11 in the ACC vs 6-12 for this team....and 15-16 overall vs 13-17. That's not a big difference and that team had some distinct numbers advantages. Looks about the same to me....as one might expect, except we got blown out by a team coached by....

You're an idiot. I was going to write out a long rebuttal, but then saw you listed having Swinton on the bench as a positive, and decided nothing more needed to be said.

P.S. The ACC in 2007 had 7 NCAA Tournament teams and 3 NIT teams. This year, a solid half of the conference may miss out on the postseason.

 

[grendel]

I don't have the minutes played but.....the returning players in 2006 were Hale (So. 8.5 pts), Drum (Sr, 8.5 pts), and Visser (Sr, 17 pts)...34 points a game spread over 3 players. This year it was CJ and McKie with ~29 points and 2 players who have been running hot and cold in each game and hardly go to guys to carry a team until recently with CJ. That's a fairly big difference on the positive side....when you include the bench players......being able to put a Swinton or Weaver into the game. We could field a team of non-freshmen in 2006. We could not do that this year could we? That means less confidence and more mistakes...period. So IMO there was more O and a fewer errors in 2006 compared to this year. It may not seem like much but who was the 3rd player that contributed as a non-freshman? We needed that soph to step up and there was no one. That killed us, especially early.

In the end that team performed much like this one. 5-11 in the ACC vs 6-12 for this team....and 15-16 overall vs 13-17. That's not a big difference and that team had some distinct numbers advantages. Looks about the same to me....as one might expect, except we got blown out by a team coached by....

You're an idiot. I was going to write out a long rebuttal, but then saw you listed having Swinton on the bench as a positive, and decided nothing more needed to be said.

P.S. The ACC in 2007 had 7 NCAA Tournament teams and 3 NIT teams. This year, a solid half of the conference may miss out on the postseason.

And as per firebz.com, the 2006-2007 team played eight teams outside KenPom top 100 (going 7-1, the only loss to a sub 100 team during Prosser's final five years).

This year's team played fifteen teams with KenPom worse than 100 (going 9-6).

 

[Azdeac]

Was looking at WFU history in ACC . . .

Acc record before Bzzz 525-524
Acc record of our last 3 coaches 180-152 (all 3 were over 50% - GDO 101-87; Skip 52-44; Dino 27-21)
Acc record under Bzzz 11-39