Steve Forbes credibility watch

[inspectah_]

Not ready to show him the door, but it's absolutely not an excuse that players leave early. Wasn't an excuse twenty years ago when CP left early and it certainly isn't now.

 

[2&2 Slider To Leyritz]

I am probably more of a Forbes apologist than many, but the man has been dealt a shit hand this year: (1) Bobi leaves, when everyone anticipated he would come back and be a force at the 3-4 spot; (2) Efton doesn't get the waiver for the first 8 games; (3) Damari was supposed to come back in early fall, has a set-back, doesn't get on the court until mid-January, and is more a less of a shell of his former self; (4) Cam's wrist is fractured at NC State and his offense isn't the same; and (5) Jao suffers another injury and we lose him as a back-up PG, causing our depth to suffer. If any one of the first 4 things doesn't happen, I think we pick up a couple (several?) more wins. (For instance, if Damari returned and was 90 % of the player he was last year, I think we likely pick up an additional victory or two.) This doesn't even consider Forbes' family situation and what that probably meant for his availability and overall mental health.

What does any of that have to do with repeatedly being in control of road games only to blow them in excruciating fashion? We are 15-0 at home and 2-9 on the road. That is not a personnel problem, that is about as basic a coaching problem as we can get.

 

[2&2 Slider To Leyritz]

Forbes inherited a dumpster fire of a program in the middle of a global pandemic. Within a year we were back to playing winning basketball and got absolutely robbed in not making the tournament. Again, it's not Forbes' fault that the perception of the ACC has plummeted, in part because other conferences (like the SEC) have become much better and in part to other conferences gaming the NET system. In the past, being top 5 in the league was a virtual lock for the tournament. I can't imagine Wake Forest firing a coach after that type of finish.

But it is his fault we are 2-9 on the road. If we could win any goddamn road games the reputation of the ACC wouldn't matter at all.

 

[Frosty]

What does any of that have to do with repeatedly being in control of road games only to blow them in excruciating fashion? We are 15-0 at home and 2-9 on the road. That is not a personnel problem, that is about as basic a coaching problem as we can get.

It's more difficult to win on the road than it is at home. Having depth makes winning easier. Having depth makes winning on the road less difficult.

I don't know how to make this simpler without busting out crayons.

 

[Rafi]

What does any of that have to do with repeatedly being in control of road games only to blow them in excruciating fashion? We are 15-0 at home and 2-9 on the road. That is not a personnel problem, that is about as basic a coaching problem as we can get.

This year we are 2-8 on the road in the ACC. Two years ago we were 5-5 with wins at VT, GT, State, FSU, and UVA. Do you think Forbes forgot some aspect of coaching over the past two years? I don't, I think we have more inconsistency from the PG position compared to Alondes, which is why we have struggled more on the road.

 

[2&2 Slider To Leyritz]

It's more difficult to win on the road than it is at home. Having depth makes winning easier. Having depth makes winning on the road less difficult.

I don't know how to make this simpler without busting out crayons.

Then go buy stock in Crayola. We beat VTech by 23 at home with an 8-man rotation that included Keller and MMM, and without Monsanto. VTech is 8-10 in conference, and is mediocre by all accounts. We just lost to them by 11 on the road, in fantastic fashion.

Yes no shit it is more difficult to win on the road than at home. Yet it is not impossible or insurmountable, as most tournament teams do it pretty regularly. Nobody is saying win every game in Cameron or the Goat Dome, but it should be possible to win at Notre Fucking Dame or Virginia Tech or Pitt (who we beat by fucking 30+ at home). This is not a talent issue, this is not a depth issue. This is a coaching issue, plain and simple. He cannot get his players to even remotely maximize their talent on the road, which is his primary job. If he can get them to play even a mediocre game, we win a good number of these road debacles.

But keep the damn blinders on and we'll be getting into the second Lost Decade pretty soon.

 

[UncleTupeloDeac]

Could Forbes improve as an in-game coach? Certainly. But I generally am of the belief that coaches get too much credit for wins, and too much blame for losses. It is the players that play. The players need to play better on the road.

 

[2&2 Slider To Leyritz]

Could Forbes improve as an in-game coach? Certainly. But I generally am of the belief that coaches get too much credit for wins, and too much blame for losses. It is the players that play. The players need to play better on the road.

Then why do they need a coach? And why is the school paying that coach millions of dollars?

 

[Ball State Deac]

This entire situation is demoralizing. I am not sure what conference realignment is going to the ACC generally, much less small schools like Wake specifically, but I doubt it is good.

To have a team with this much talent blow so many leads on the road is just crushing.

 

[tigerswood]

Then go buy stock in Crayola. We beat VTech by 23 at home with an 8-man rotation that included Keller and MMM, and without Monsanto. VTech is 8-10 in conference, and is mediocre by all accounts. We just lost to them by 11 on the road, in fantastic fashion.

Yes no shit it is more difficult to win on the road than at home. Yet it is not impossible or insurmountable, as most tournament teams do it pretty regularly. Nobody is saying win every game in Cameron or the Goat Dome, but it should be possible to win at Notre Fucking Dame or Virginia Tech or Pitt (who we beat by fucking 30+ at home). This is not a talent issue, this is not a depth issue. This is a coaching issue, plain and simple. He cannot get his players to even remotely maximize their talent on the road, which is his primary job. If he can get them to play even a mediocre game, we win a good number of these road debacles.

But keep the damn blinders on and we'll be getting into the second Lost Decade pretty soon.

Ah yes, because being around .500 or better in the league and on the bubble is really similar to the sub .300 records of the lost decade. Also don't see us losing to the Stetsons, Houston Baptists, etc. of the world these days.

 

[2&2 Slider To Leyritz]

Ah yes, because being around .500 or better in the league and on the bubble is really similar to the sub .300 records of the lost decade. Also don't see us losing to the Stetsons, Houston Baptists, etc. of the world these days.

If you are happy with this season and think it is satisfactory in Year 4, then good for you. Apparently we have different standards.

I will note that NC State fans are demanding their coach be fired after only making the Tournament 2 out of the last 7 years. I guess if they do, we should immediately give Keatts a lifetime contract because dancing 2 out of every 7 years would be like us going to the Final Four.

 

[Frosty]

Then go buy stock in Crayola. We beat VTech by 23 at home with an 8-man rotation that included Keller and MMM, and without Monsanto. VTech is 8-10 in conference, and is mediocre by all accounts. We just lost to them by 11 on the road, in fantastic fashion.

Yes no shit it is more difficult to win on the road than at home. Yet it is not impossible or insurmountable, as most tournament teams do it pretty regularly. Nobody is saying win every game in Cameron or the Goat Dome, but it should be possible to win at Notre Fucking Dame or Virginia Tech or Pitt (who we beat by fucking 30+ at home). This is not a talent issue, this is not a depth issue. This is a coaching issue, plain and simple. He cannot get his players to even remotely maximize their talent on the road, which is his primary job. If he can get them to play even a mediocre game, we win a good number of these road debacles.

But keep the damn blinders on and we'll be getting into the second Lost Decade pretty soon.

Nobody is saying it's impossible or insurmountable to win on the road. It's clearly an issue this team has. Hand-waving away our depth issues is disingenuous, though.

Let's look at all of our road losses this year:
UGA 80-77 (WF down 4 at half)
FSU 87-82 (WF down 1 at half)
State 83-76 (WF up 10 at half)
UNC 85-64 (WF up 1 at half)
Pitt 77-72 (WF up 10 at half)
Duke 77-69 (WF down 2 at half)
UVA 49-47 (WF up 1 at half)
ND 70-65 (WF up 5 at half)
VT 87-76 (WF up 9 at half)

We have blown sizeable half time leads on the road three times this season and got vaporized in the second half by a UNC team that's simply better than us. For the bolded games it's entirely reasonable to think that we would have fared better with a healthy backup point guard, Bobi, and a playable Monsanto (and an eligible Reid in the case of the UGA game).

 

[tbird]

In other words, if those games had ended at halftime, we'd be 9 and 3...I would take that...

 

[PhDeac]

Maybe there's a straight forward issue we've been hesistant to discuss. Forbes struggles on the road this season due to the anxiety of being away from his wife.

 

[Frosty]

If you are happy with this season and think it is satisfactory in Year 4, then good for you. Apparently we have different standards.

I will note that NC State fans are demanding their coach be fired after only making the Tournament 2 out of the last 7 years. I guess if they do, we should immediately give Keatts a lifetime contract because dancing 2 out of every 7 years would be like us going to the Final Four.

Well if Forbes inherited a program where the previous coach went to the NCAAT 4 out of his 6 seasons and made two Sweet Sixteens in those 6 years then maybe we'd feel the same way.

 

[spritethr]

If you are happy with this season and think it is satisfactory in Year 4, then good for you. Apparently we have different standards.

I will note that NC State fans are demanding their coach be fired after only making the Tournament 2 out of the last 7 years. I guess if they do, we should immediately give Keatts a lifetime contract because dancing 2 out of every 7 years would be like us going to the Final Four.

NC State also hasn't done much of note under Keatts outside of making the tournament twice in the past seven years

 

[wakelaw13]

If you are happy with this season and think it is satisfactory in Year 4, then good for you. Apparently we have different standards.

I will note that NC State fans are demanding their coach be fired after only making the Tournament 2 out of the last 7 years. I guess if they do, we should immediately give Keatts a lifetime contract because dancing 2 out of every 7 years would be like us going to the Final Four.

What the NC State fanbase demands is entirely irrelevant to what Wake Forest should do.

NC State's fanbase disproportionately judges success based on what they do against UNC. They desperately want to get out of UNC's shadow and it's never going to happen. They will always be number two and they will always have a complex about it.

Wake Forest is the smallest power 5 school and punches above it's weight. We don't need to be Duke and - aside from one poster here - we don't spend all of our time trying to emulate them. Wake Forest is different from everyone else in ways that are mostly very positive. I absolutely believe that Forbes can win, and win big, here.

 

[thatguy2016]

Demands excellence.

Unabashedly supports a team that just extended Daniel Jones for $160 million.

Perfect!

 

[2&2 Slider To Leyritz]

Demands excellence.

Unabashedly supports a team that just extended Daniel Jones for $160 million.

Perfect!

The Giants have as many Super Bowl wins as we have NCAA tournament (64) appearances in the last 16 years. So yes, if Wake had two Nattys over that same period I might be a little more forgiving about some misfires. Instead, we have absolute shit.

 

[ironwill24]

I am probably more of a Forbes apologist than many, but the man has been dealt a shit hand this year: (1) Bobi leaves, when everyone anticipated he would come back and be a force at the 3-4 spot; (2) Efton doesn't get the waiver for the first 8 games; (3) Damari was supposed to come back in early fall, has a set-back, doesn't get on the court until mid-January, and is more a less of a shell of his former self; (4) Cam's wrist is fractured at NC State and his offense isn't the same; and (5) Jao suffers another injury and we lose him as a back-up PG, causing our depth to suffer. If any one of the first 4 things doesn't happen, I think we pick up a couple (several?) more wins. (For instance, if Damari returned and was 90 % of the player he was last year, I think we likely pick up an additional victory or two.) This doesn't even consider Forbes' family situation and what that probably meant for his availability and overall mental health.

All these things you mentioned are part of roster management required to be successful as a head coach and every team has roster issues every year be it injury or early departures. Also acting like it was some big surprise that Efton didn't get his waiver right away is disingenuous.