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Thanks, Obama.

Deacon923 said:
JHMD you've made this point ad nauseam. Most people would agree that our current system is not ideal and you've beat that dead horse to a bloody rotten pulp on this and many other threads. What I'd like to see from you, as an obviously intelligent person, is two things in a post:
1. An acknowledgement that no government system is immune from abuse, and that one-off anecdotes from dubious sources about isolated incidents of abuse do not constitute evidence that an entire system is irredeemably broken.
2. A post that, instead of yet again molesting the dead horse of your objection to subsistence welfare programs, outlines your proposal for reform so we can discuss it.
Click to expand...

Also very curious about this.
 
Deacon923 said:
JHMD you've made this point ad nauseam. Most people would agree that our current system is not ideal and you've beat that dead horse to a bloody rotten pulp on this and many other threads. What I'd like to see from you, as an obviously intelligent person, is two things in a post:
1. An acknowledgement that no government system is immune from abuse, and that one-off anecdotes from dubious sources about isolated incidents of abuse do not constitute evidence that an entire system is irredeemably broken.
2. A post that, instead of yet again molesting the dead horse of your objection to subsistence welfare programs, outlines your proposal for reform so we can discuss it.
Click to expand...

1. Sure, no one doubts that, but do really think we're dealing with isolated cases, when the policies themselves operate in a way that chases out all personal responsibility? What does one have to do to forfeit a government subsidy, short of a criminal act?

Tell me how the current system leads to anything other than more dependence. I think that if you want to give someone free health care because of factors beyond their control, then---if you sincerely want them to one day be independent---you'd start by asking them to control the things within their control: If you have additional children while currently on government assistance, the child takes your benefits. If you can't pass a drug/nicotine test, you don't get food stamps. What are the building blocks to personal advancement, if not a sense of personal responsibility?

Well-funded, accountable public schools (step three) are going to fall on deaf ears until we rebuild the family structure by restoring individual accountability and leadership at the community level (step two). Why would I provide for my children if I know you will? Human nature (and an awful, awful lot of data) shows that as federal dollars have rushed in, fathers have walked away. If you father/mother a child you can't pay for, the child should take your benefits from the parent. We already pull driver's licenses for dead beat parents who owe back-child support. NOTHING gets past due child support paid faster than taking away a drivers/fishing/hunting license. I don't care if somebody hunts/fishes/drives, I care that they take care of their children, because they will almost always do it better than a government check sent to a single parent home (note that our policies encourage the birth of marginal babies to a single mother...can someone tell me how this is going to lead to anything good?). Where are our incentives/disincentives for people to care for their own children? The honor system? How's that working? Until you teach people that bad choices make a bad outcome, and that good choices make a good outcome, you forfeit standing to be surprised when we have tons of bad outcomes. Classic "You don't get what you expect, you get what you tolerate", and our policies tolerate (if not encourage) poor personal responsibility at the individual level. That is not a one-off, anecdotal event. That's what we do everyday, everywhere. This isn't that hard: look in the mirror. Were you born into a single parent home (or raised in a home by your grandmother as one of double-digit children)? If not, why do we enact policies that don't discourage irresponsible choices? If that's not good enough for you, why do you support policies (or in this thread, criticize proposed reforms that would restore personal responsibility) that might, just might, help prevent a situation you wouldn't accept yourself for somebody else's life? The solution to that quandary is not a sudden discovery of new "rights" to have other people buy you stuff.

eta: A little more on step two. What's the strongest institution in every black community in the South? Would it be the worst thing in the world if we let struggling public schools partner with strong, community-led churches to help pair children without a father figure with an organization birthed, funded and most importantly led by their own community? Instead of mailing a check from Northern Virginia to the Mississippi Delta and congratulating ourselves on how much we care about other people, why don't we actually look at what is working in their community and leverage those resources? Could the church vs. State crowd hold their nose and swallow their knee-jerk pride if it would, you know, actually help some kids that really need help, leadership and mentorship?
 
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So.... absolutely no details for how to reform the current system. Cool.
 
my response to the last three posts can be summed up thusly: :rolleyes: :deadhorse emoticon we used to have on old boards:

Right, dude, we get it. Personal responsibility is good. Nobody is disagreeing with you. Nobody is saying that the current system is perfect or shouldn't be changed. That's a strawman on top of a dead horse. Tell us how to fix it. Oh wait you did - take away a person's driver's license for unspecified failures of personal responsibility. That's a great idea. Nothing like taking away a person's ability to legally get to work to encourage working. That'll teach 'em!

Oh wait there was one more: the child is going to "take the parent's benefits". Tell us more about how that one works, please.
 
Deacon923 said:
my response to the last three posts can be summed up thusly: :rolleyes: :deadhorse emoticon we used to have on old boards:

Right, dude, we get it. Personal responsibility is good. Nobody is disagreeing with you. Nobody is saying that the current system is perfect or shouldn't be changed. That's a strawman on top of a dead horse. Tell us how to fix it. Oh wait you did - take away a person's driver's license for unspecified failures of personal responsibility. That's a great idea. Nothing like taking away a person's ability to legally get to work to encourage working. That'll teach 'em!

Oh wait there was one more: the child is going to "take the parent's benefits". Tell us more about how that one works, please.
Click to expand...

You're saying exactly that, since you believe my opposition for continuing our failed policies is a smokescreen for not caring about other people. LOOK at their condition and tell me that's good enough. If you agree that personal responsibility is a good thing, can you please demonstrate how the current policies encourage it? If not, then you shouldn't bristle when I say that there should be consequences for failing to live up to your responsibilities. If you're already failing, then withholding the privilege of driving a car isn't going to further hurt the child, it's going to limit the dead-beat parent's choices and actually encourage living up to your responsibilities. Clearly you don't "get it", or else you would support policies that encourage that responsibility. Again, I'm assuming you actually want that, perhaps recklessly in the face of your opposition.
 
jhmd2000 said:
eta: A little more on step two. What's the strongest institution in every black community in the South? Would it be the worst thing in the world if we let struggling public schools partner with strong, community-led churches to help pair children without a father figure with an organization birthed, funded and most importantly led by their own community? Instead of mailing a check from Northern Virginia to the Mississippi Delta and congratulating ourselves on how much we care about other people, why don't we actually look at what is working in their community and leverage those resources? Could the church vs. State crowd hold their nose and swallow their knee-jerk pride if it would, you know, actually help some kids that really need help, leadership and mentorship?
Click to expand...

Could the GOP hold their nose and swallow their knee-jerk pride to fund similar programs at local mosques?
 
BeachBumDeac said:
So.... absolutely no details for how to reform the current system. Cool.
Click to expand...

I think you stop tolerating/encouraging bad choices and give people ownership of responsibilities for their own lives. You think that poor dependent people should stay poor and dependent, and that anyone who doesn't think so can't have good motives. Who could possibly care more than you, after all?
 
jhmd2000 said:
I think you stop tolerating/encouraging bad choices and give people ownership of responsibilities for their own lives. You think that poor dependent people should stay poor and dependent, and that anyone who doesn't think so can't have good motives. Who could possibly care more than you, after all?
Click to expand...

Still no details for how to reform the current system
 
jhmd2000 said:
eta: A little more on step two. What's the strongest institution in every black community in the South? Would it be the worst thing in the world if we let struggling public schools partner with strong, community-led churches to help pair children without a father figure with an organization birthed, funded and most importantly led by their own community? Instead of mailing a check from Northern Virginia to the Mississippi Delta and congratulating ourselves on how much we care about other people, why don't we actually look at what is working in their community and leverage those resources? Could the church vs. State crowd hold their nose and swallow their knee-jerk pride if it would, you know, actually help some kids that really need help, leadership and mentorship?
Click to expand...

http://www.bbbs.org/site/c.9iILI3NGKhK6F/b.5962335/k.BE16/Home.htm
 
Deacfreak07 said:
Could the GOP hold their nose and swallow their knee-jerk pride to fund similar programs at local mosques?
Click to expand...

I'd welcome the opportunity for any group that could help a struggling child find positive mentorship, but you and I both know that the Left crazies go into a catatonic fit if somebody prays at a graduation. The Right isn't the problem on this one, and not by a long shot (as we both well know).
 
The federal government gives a fuck ton of grants to religious charities who work in the community, and the left really doesn't raise a stink about it at all. I don't know what you're talking about.
 
jhmd2000 said:
I'd welcome the opportunity for any group that could help a struggling child find positive mentorship, but you and I both know that the Left crazies go into a catatonic fit if somebody prays at a graduation. The Right isn't the problem on this one, and not by a long shot (as we both well know).
Click to expand...

I don't disagree with your assessment of the left, but if you think the right is comfortable with an Imam saying a prayer at a graduation or funding mentorship programs for kids at mosques, you are absolutely lying to yourself. I can see the fear mongering FB posts now (Barack Hussein Obama is trying to build a MOSLEM army by corrupting our children!). Hell, you might even start a thread about one.
 
BeachBumDeac said:
The federal government gives a fuck ton of grants to religious charities who work in the community, and the left really doesn't raise a stink about it at all. I don't know what you're talking about.
Click to expand...

Right. Clearly you've never heard of any opposition to the potential helpful influence of strong community organizations of a religious nature in the public schools. I must be making it up, or confusing it with the issue we weren't discussing about federal grants to charities. Hey, come back here with those goal lines...
 
BeachBumDeac said:
The federal government gives a fuck ton of grants to religious charities who work in the community, and the left really doesn't raise a stink about it at all. I don't know what you're talking about.
Click to expand...

The right gets upset about it, too. Religious organizations implement welfare programs as is.
 
jhmd2000 said:
You're saying exactly that, since you believe my opposition for continuing our failed policies is a smokescreen for not caring about other people. LOOK at their condition and tell me that's good enough. If you agree that personal responsibility is a good thing, can you please demonstrate how the current policies encourage it? If not, then you shouldn't bristle when I say that there should be consequences for failing to live up to your responsibilities. If you're already failing, then withholding the privilege of driving a car isn't going to further hurt the child, it's going to limit the dead-beat parent's choices and actually encourage living up to your responsibilities. Clearly you don't "get it", or else you would support policies that encourage that responsibility. Again, I'm assuming you actually want that, perhaps recklessly in the face of your opposition.
Click to expand...

actually, i said the Constitution was being used as a smokescreen. I don't think your opposition to current policies is a smokescreen, I just think I'm tired of reading the same posts from you over and over again. You're a smart dude and I'd really like to hear some ideas instead of screeds about how bad things are.

As for the driving thing, if all you are talking about is jerking a license for failure to pay child support, I guess my response is (i) that hardly seems like a global solution to all our societal ills, (ii) once you take the license and the guy loses his job and now cannot pay child support even if he wants to, what's your next stick to use on him? Indentured servitude? Debtor's prison? I just don't think you've thought through the implications very well.
 
jhmd2000 said:
Right. Clearly you've never heard of any opposition to the potential helpful influence of strong community organizations of a religious nature in the public schools. I must be making it up, or confusing it with the issue we weren't discussing about federal grants to charities. Hey, come back here with those goal lines...
Click to expand...

well hello there strawman.
 
jhmd2000 said:
Right. Clearly you've never heard of any opposition to the potential helpful influence of strong community organizations of a religious nature in the public schools. I must be making it up, or confusing it with the issue we weren't discussing about federal grants to charities. Hey, come back here with those goal lines...
Click to expand...

I thought we WERE discussing the federal government giving money to churches to help do work in the community. Is that not what we were talking about?

You said "I'd welcome the opportunity for any group that could help a struggling child find positive mentorship, but you and I both know that the Left crazies go into a catatonic fit if somebody prays at a graduation."

Is there any way to help a struggling child find positive mentorship OUTSIDE of a public school? I didn't immediately assume you were talking about ONLY inside a public school
 
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