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The Islamic Dilemma

Yeah it's much better to bomb the shit out of civilians all over Syria and compound the worst humanitarian crisis of the 21st Century*


*according to NPR this morning

Not like there weren't atrocities being committed on a daily basis before the Russian involvement- although I think this peace agreement is a sham and is largely meaningless, it would not have happened without Russian involvement. Their airpower has completely shifted the balance of power. There are no good sides in Syria, except maybe the Kurdish YPG. They are the one group that tends to be somewhat sane from a western perspective and is closest to sharing our values. Of course the Turks can't stand them.
 
Oh no doubt there were atrocities prior to Russian involvement. There are basically no good options in Syria at all right now. I tend to think this peace agreement may have some hope but that hanging its dependency on all sides accepting it probably means that it's dead on arrival from the get go.

Bottom line is Russia and America fundamentally disagree on Assad being in power or not so it's hard to get anything else done when both sides have that as a caveat to an agreement.
 
Lavrov said Russia will continue to target "terrorists". Assad/the Russians/Iran/Hezbollah are not going to allow the Sunni extremists who oppose Assad to regroup. I will be shocked if there is any real peace.
 
The segment on NPR this morning had David Miliband (of Labour Party fame) on talking about Syria and humanitarian efforts and he said that once you're in Syria it's clear that Russia is just bombing indiscriminately.
 
more grist, not directly related but on topic (WSJ opinion piece by Henninger... didn't see it linked in the last 16 pages). Money shot for the bastards too lazy to read all the way through -- ".... But that understates the long series of political compromises and cultural surrenders that have brought the U.S. and Europe to this point"

http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-humbling-of-the-west-1453939225

copy / pasted in case it's behind the paywall ... breaking the rules because this is interesting / painful to read --

The Humbling of the West
Europe and the U.S. bow and scrape to ascendant Iran.

Some wonder how history will treat Barack Obama’s presidency. That depends on who writes the histories.

Secretary of State John Kerry’s account will fist-pump the Iran nuclear deal as the central foreign-policy event of the Obama presidency, a triumph for Western diplomacy.

But news photographs in recent weeks are producing a different history. These photos document the abject humiliation of the West by Iran. Americans who plan to vote in their presidential election should look hard at these photos, because the West’s direction after this will turn on the decisions they make.

The first photo is of a hallway in Rome’s Capitoline Museums, a repository of art dating to Western antiquity. Out of what the government of Italy called “respect” for the sensibilities of visiting Iranian President Hassan Rouhani, the museum placed large white boxes over several nude sculptures, including a Venus created in the second century B.C.

Then, because Mr. Rouhani will not attend a meal that serves alcohol to anyone, the nominally Italian government of Prime Minister Matteo Renzi declined to serve wine.

They did so for the same reason that beggars grub change in front of Rome’s churches. Freed by the Obama nuclear deal with Iran, Italy’s tin-cup businesses signed about a dozen deals with Mr. Rouhani this week, totaling $18 billion.

The bowing and scraping to Mr. Rouhani continues this week as France and Germany sign more deals. This is not economic re-normalization. Rather than reform its weak, politically unstable economies, Europe is content to make itself a dependency of the aborning Iranian empire.

The second photo of Western submission depicts what appears to be a glee-filled meeting between the president of Iran and the leader of the world’s Catholics, Pope Francis, who gave Mr. Rouhani 40 minutes of his time.

The Vatican argues this is realpolitik by a pope trying to protect Christians in the Middle East by inducing Iran to play an “important role” in the peace process.

Set aside the “role” Iran has played in the death of a quarter-million Syrians and the refugees now destabilizing Europe. One still may ask: Why such public and jolly photo-ops with this person?

The U.S. State Department’s religious-freedom report says in 2014 Iran executed at least 24 individuals for the crime of moharebeh (enmity against God). And surely that understates the total killed.

The persecuted in Iran include Bahais, Sunni Muslims, Christians (notably evangelicals), Jews, Yarsanis and even Shia groups.

Mr. Rouhani is grinning in this photo because he knows these people can’t move Iran’s culture out of the 16th century.

The third photograph is of 10 sailors from the U.S. Navy who are kneeling in rows, hands on their heads, on the deck of an Iranian boat.

The Obama administration hasn’t provided an explanation for how this “deviation” and capture by Iran in the Persian Gulf happened.

Instead of outrage over Iran’s treatment of the sailors, Sec. Kerry praised the Iranians’ “cooperation and quick response.”

Cooperation? Iran humiliated the sailors by making them kneel in the style of an Islamic State execution ceremony and then humiliated the U.S. by releasing that photo.

Meeting in a congratulatory ceremony with the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps members who took the sailors, Iranian supremo Ayatollah Khamenei said, “This event should be considered God’s work.”

One is tempted to tip one’s hat to the Khamenei-Rouhani strategy team. Iran took the West’s measure with its nuclear brinkmanship and the West bent.

Some may say the Italians are the Italians, the pope has his reasons, and Barack Obama and John Kerry are just finishing their apology tour. But that understates the long series of political compromises and cultural surrenders that have brought the U.S. and Europe to this point.

Italy’s repudiation of its own heritage to accommodate Iran’s president is a significant symbolic event. The Capitoline’s Venus isn’t just a naked lady carved out of marble. Just as the naked man and woman in Masaccio’s “Expulsion from the Garden of Eden,” painted in 1423 at the dawn of the Renaissance, are hardly figure studies.

In her recently published book arguing a relationship between the Western artistic legacy and democratic evolution, “David’s Sling,” Victoria Gardner Coates says these works “are not isolated aesthetic objects; part of their value as historical evidence derives from their role in the public life of the communities that produced them.”

Unless that public life is forgotten. Western schools may no longer teach the Battle of Thermopylae, but one may assume Hassan Rouhani knows the details of Persia’s historic loss to brave Greece in 480 B.C. as if it were yesterday.

Putting a white box over a Venus to placate a Rouhani is a loss in the Persians’ return trip to the West.

Write to henninger@wsj.com

I'm sorry, but anyone who says Europe is making itself a dependency of the coming Iranian empire is a fucking idiot. I mean, holy shit, get a basic understanding of facts. Italy's gdp is double Iran's. The EU as a whole is 18x Iranian gdp. What a complete crock of shit.
 
I'm sorry, but anyone who says Europe is making itself a dependency of the coming Iranian empire is a fucking idiot. I mean, holy shit, get a basic understanding of facts. Italy's gdp is double Iran's. The EU as a whole is 18x Iranian gdp. What a complete crock of shit.

Your conclusion that Henninger is a 'fucking idiot' is a bit harsh.. arguably.. if we were to drag this out... we'd likely both come to the conclusion that hyperbole doesn't mean what you think it means.
 
Iran was cruising to a stable democracy in the 50's before America and the UK fucked that up beyond belief. We fucked this up and now are trying to punish modern Iran for our own failures. It's ridiculous.
 
A busload of refugees arrive in a village and are surrounded by protesters chanting "We are the people". One terrified child refuses to go into the refugee center and is dragged off the bus by the cops.
 
The migrant crisis is helping to destroy tourism in Greece. In some areas bookings are down 90%, this in a country where unemployment is over 25%. And the situation is about to get far worse.
For months experts have warned that if northern Europe restricts refugee flows without an overall plan for handling migration, Greece faces disaster. The United Nations predicts 1m arrivals this year.
http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21693630-greece-starts-fill-up-its-neighbours-restrict-flow-migrants-germany-no-way-out
 
Merkel gave an interview last night where she continues to say Germany will not place a limit on how many refugees they accept and they will not close their borders. If her and her supporters truly believe these people are good for the German economy and what they're doing is the right thing, why don't they fly or bus them from Greece to Germany? Why are they making them have to go through all this? There is nothing for them in Greece. The Greek government doesn't have the resources to care for these people.
 
The Austrians were probably the biggest, most sanctimonious, critics of Orban and now look at them.
 
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