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The New Socialists

ImTheCaptain said:
but sure, spin it however you want

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I’m not spinning it because i don’t believe that McCains politics (or Obama’s) meant he wanted what was best for citizens and certainly not all citizens, and also certainly not people around the world.
 
MHBDemon said:
I’m not spinning it because i don’t believe that McCains politics (or Obama’s) meant he wanted what was best for citizens and certainly not all citizens, and also certainly not people around the world.
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You are so right. Obama want was best for Americans or others. He showed it by getting tens of millions of Americans health insurance that they couldn't get before. He showed he didn't what was best by getting Lily Ledbetter passed to get women more equal pay. He showed it by challenging the voter suppression laws Republicans set up in state after state. He showed he didn't care about what's best for Americans by creating programs that led to cutting the unemployment rate in half.

There's a lot more, but you won't admit it.
 
MHBDemon said:
I mean it's not the core of my argument or anything. I've provided plenty of discussion on Socialism. Your next substantive argument against my views will be the first that I've seen.
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chrisL's point is always about how to avoid Republican power, but nothing about how to create a path forward toward a true progressive platform. not a big problem for him given his political views, but it does highlight the real challenge of trying to move a leftist agenda forward in the American two-party reality.

there are tough choices to be made in the short run and they all frankly suck for the most part, but I sometimes feel like there needs to be a better reckoning among the left of the real path forward and what it means to certain vulnerable people.
 
Same goes for you Chris. No one wants to or can defend centrist liberalism when it just lost to Donald Trump and has no answers for today's social crises.
 
JuiceCrewAllStar said:
there are tough choices to be made in the short run and they all frankly suck for the most part, but I sometimes feel like there needs to be a better reckoning among the left of the real path forward and what it means to certain vulnerable people.
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What do you think that reckoning or path should be like?
 
MHBDemon said:
Give me a fucking break. Why do you spend so much time bothering Strick or I about socialism, if you don't have an issue with my political views? I'm not even that dogmatic about my voting positions, haven't made up my mind on how I will vote, etc. I just don't believe the path to creating a party that cares about the interests of poor and working class people is through the Democratic Party. If you want to have that argument, then make it.
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I have never bothered you about socialism. In fact, I have said I agree with you on most issues, just not on the immediate dismantling of capitalism in the US. Again, you see non-enemies as enemies -- that's your whole issue. You can't work with anyone not in absolute lockstep.
 
The big advantage conservatives have is that they offer quick, simple solutions for simple problems. It's easy to unite simple people. And it's easier to draw in people who are looking for which side has a plan.

Liberals offer a lot of complex long-term solutions for a lot of complex problems and as we see here, they're willing to fight to the death for their specific solution and what they believe are the problems that should be the top priority. People who aren't in those fights likely see that as disorganization.

I'm not sure how best to address these issues, especially out of power. Democrats so far seem to have tried to let compromise decide what to prioritize and the solutions, basically get what you can get. Obviously, Republicans won't compromise now so any compromise has to be among the left.
 
Shooshmoo said:
I have never bothered you about socialism. In fact, I have said I agree with you on most issues, just not on the immediate dismantling of capitalism in the US. Again, you see non-enemies as enemies -- that's your whole issue. You can't work with anyone not in absolute lockstep.
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meh. I really don't. I see RJ as an enemy because he is a liberal that just keeps arguing for more and better liberalism all while screaming "see we agree on all this stuff, we should be on the same team" when he in fact disagrees with most of my core beliefs. The people I see as enemies are those that constantly defend the status quo while refusing to put forth their own ideas for a path forward.

I feel like we are stuck in this place where people just want to say "we need reform" without explaining what that reform looks like or how we accomplish it. I went to an ACLU event the other day on mass incarceration, and didn't really hear much specifics from anyone on how we end mass incarceration, and the cops they gave a platform to just kept saying we need to get back to community policing and "we deal with the bad cops as soon as we find out about it."
 
MHBDemon said:
What do you think that reckoning or path should be like?
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I honestly don't know because I have a bit of an avoidance to the problem, but one way I think about it is in a local to national direction. This allows for a progressive platform to actually find its way into policy and build from there. Putting a single progressive in Congress, or even the White House, will put them in a limited position. Not that we shouldn't try, as the symbolic and motivating power of having such a person in a high office is extremely valuable, but I do think the most energy should be spent at the city council, mayor, and county commissioner level.
 
JuiceCrewAllStar said:
I honestly don't know because I have a bit of an avoidance to the problem, but one way I think about it is in a local to national direction. This allows for a progressive platform to actually find its way into policy and build from there. Putting a single progressive in Congress, or even the White House, will put them in a limited position. Not that we shouldn't try, as the symbolic and motivating power of having such a person in a high office is extremely valuable, but I do think the most energy should be spent at the city council, mayor, and county commissioner level.
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I agree. Here is an article about DC DSA getting involved in ANC races:

https://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/news/article/21026812/the-dc-democratic-socialists-of-america-are-going-hyperlocal-for-the-upcoming-general-election

I haven't finished reading this yet, but here is Carlos Rosa on strategy in Chicago:

http://inthesetimes.com/article/21461/progressive-platform-chicago-2019-mayor-rahm-emanuel-election

The Cooperation Jackson project is also a good example to take lessons from.
 
MHBDemon said:
Same goes for you Chris. No one wants to or can defend centrist liberalism when it just lost to Donald Trump and has no answers for today's social crises.
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This is like the team that lost in the Eastern Conference Finals talking crap about the team who lost in the NBA championship series
 
Why are you so blindly loyal to a strategy that lost? What’s your favorite 2020 candidate option?
 
MHBDemon said:
This is a very good summary of the criticisms and schisms in DSA right now.

https://newrepublic.com/article/152789/americas-socialists-race-problem
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It's a conundrum. Most (certainly not all) activists, particularly white political activists, are economically comfortable, so their economic protests aren't as urgent, whereas POC who are protesting racial injustice are understandably more urgent, so the notion of a comfortable white activist convincing a POC that economic activism is equally as important as racial activism is a difficult sell. I've noticed that economic focused activist POC, such as Briahna Joy Gray, tend to be treated like tokens and Uncle Toms by racially focused activists.

I wish I saw a way to circle that square, but I don't. It seems that socialists finding legitimacy with racially focused activists, or vice versa, requires making political concessions that undermine their philosophy. Included in that concession, for socialists, is a burning resentment of poor whites that almost requires political abandonment.
 
In alabama for christmas this year, and the economics are just completely depressing. The property tax rates are virtually nothing, because the whites want to send their kids to private religious schools so don't want to fund the black public schools. Sales taxes are among the highest in the nation to make up for it though, and they tax groceries which most any state doesn't do to make sure to be as regressive as possible.

Guess I have to wonder why blacks continue to live in the south?
 
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