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Torture Report Released

RJKarl

RJKarl

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Some say it shouldn't be released. I disagree. If it wasn't, then we could do it again.

To me the most surprising aspect of it was that the CIA Inspector General first told W about the depth of the torture and how often it was used in 2006. How did this happen?

Did Cheney intentionally keep from W?

Did W give instructions that he didn't want to know?

The positive part of this is the IG said W seemed "uncomfortable" with the details. The counterbalance of this is that W had been hearing about allegations for years, why didn't the CIC ask about this for nearly five years?

This was a disgraceful period in our history. It needed to see the light of day.
 
RJKarl said:
Some say it shouldn't be released. I disagree. If it wasn't, then we could do it again.

To me the most surprising aspect of it was that the CIA Inspector General first told W about the depth of the torture and how often it was used in 2006. How did this happen?

Did Cheney intentionally keep from W?

Did W give instructions that he didn't want to know?

The positive part of this is the IG said W seemed "uncomfortable" with the details. The counterbalance of this is that W had been hearing about allegations for years, why didn't the CIC ask about this for nearly five years?

This was a disgraceful period in our history. It needed to see the light of day.
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I'm just glad we moved past this, now we outsource our torture that's progressive.
 
We did that then. We sent people to Egypt and other countries.

We are not doing now what we did then.
 
Parts of it were/are certainly disgraceful, but I do look forward to the feigned outrage from terrorist groups who regularly video themselves beheading those they capture.
 
Flipping between CNN covering those CIA meanies who tortured those poor, helpless men (uh, no) and over on Fox watching Gruber get shredded for lying and unwilling to report his consulting fees.

Tough call as high drama TV today for me, the stupid American voter, who cannot comprehend a tax.

Best part of all this will be watching Cheney squirm. Do not like Cheney.
 
Cheney won't squirm. He'll say it was less than frat initiation.
 
How is torture even an issue? I mean, if it worked, then I can see there being a serious debate as to its morality. But my understanding is that it doesn't.
 
Complacent Deac said:
Flipping between CNN covering those CIA meanies who tortured those poor, helpless men (uh, no) and over on Fox watching Gruber get shredded for lying and unwilling to report his consulting fees.

Tough call as high drama TV today for me, the stupid American voter, who cannot comprehend a tax.

Best part of all this will be watching Cheney squirm. Do not like Cheney.
Click to expand...

Cheney doesn't squirm. He's all badass.

I love the idea that the report could inflame terrorists as if the actual torture and war didn't inflame them enough.
 
Is there anything in the report that we don't already know? Obviously we don't know the answer to that but I just assume it would affirm what we all suspected.
 
wakelaw13 said:
How is torture even an issue? I mean, if it worked, then I can see there being a serious debate as to its morality. But my understanding is that it doesn't.
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It was like torture light. The typical we want to torture but we want to remain moral so we will fall somewhere in the middle, then it was just torture without actually working. If you are going to torture you need to go full on crazy, like kidnap peoples families etc... like the Russians do.
 
wakelaw13 said:
How is torture even an issue? I mean, if it worked, then I can see there being a serious debate as to its morality. But my understanding is that it doesn't.
Click to expand...

FWIW, the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy takes the view that there are some cases in which torture is morally justifiable: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/torture/

Someone might claim that torture is an absolute moral wrong (Matthews (2008); Brecher (2008)). On this view there simply are no real or imaginable circumstances in which torture could be morally justified.

This is a hard view to sustain, not least because we have already seen that being tortured is not necessarily worse than being killed, and torturing someone not necessarily morally worse than killing him. Naturally, someone might hold that killing is an absolute moral wrong, i.e., killing anyone—no matter how guilty—is never morally justified. This view is consistent with holding that torture is an absolute moral wrong, i.e. torturing anyone—no matter how guilty—is never morally justified. However, the price of consistency is very high. The view that killing is an absolute moral wrong is a very implausible one. It would rule out, for example, killing in self-defence. Let us, therefore, set it aside and continue with the view that torture, but not killing, is an absolute moral wrong.

For those who hold that killing is not an absolute moral wrong, it is very difficult to see how torture could be an absolute moral wrong, given that killing is sometimes morally worse than torture. In particular, it is difficult to see how torturing (but not killing) the guilty terrorist and saving the lives of thousands could be morally worse than refraining from torturing him and allowing him to murder thousands—torturing the terrorist is a temporary infringement of his autonomy, whereas his detonating of the nuclear device is a permanent violation of the autonomy of thousands.

In conclusion, the view that it is, all things considered, morally wrong to torture the terrorist in the scenario outlined faces very serious objections; and it is difficult to see how these objections can be met. It is plausible, therefore, that there are some imaginable circumstances in which it is morally permissible to torture someone.
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I am pretty sure torture works to some extent. That does not make it okay by any means but it should factor in the discussion. I am uncomfortable with the idea of torture, but it would be hard to say never if you know the suspect has solid info on an imminent threat. Also think that all torture is not equal. Water boarding is not the same gouging eyes etc.
 
knowell said:
I am pretty sure torture works to some extent. That does not make it okay by any means but it should factor in the discussion. I am uncomfortable with the idea of torture, but it would be hard to say never if you know the suspect has solid info on an imminent threat. Also think that all torture is not equal. Water boarding is not the same gouging eyes etc.
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What the fuck is this post based on? The first and fifth sentences are basically unsupportable. Fourth is fairly ridiculous. Second sentences rests entirely on the first, which is to say air.
 
knowell said:
I am pretty sure torture works to some extent. That does not make it okay by any means but it should factor in the discussion. I am uncomfortable with the idea of torture, but it would be hard to say never if you know the suspect has solid info on an imminent threat. Also think that all torture is not equal. Water boarding is not the same gouging eyes etc.
Click to expand...

You are wrong. Torture does not work. Here's one of the many studies about it : http://www.newsweek.com/neurosciencetorture-doesnt-work-and-heres-why-79365

"While we wait for Dick Cheney, the Pentagon, or the CIA to release evidence that "enhanced interrogation techniques" produced useful, truthful intelligence that could not be obtained without torture, neuroscientists are weighing in on how likely torture is to elicit such information—and they are not impressed.

It's become the conventional wisdom that the tortured will say anything to make the torture stop, and that "anything" need not be truthful as long as it is what the torturers want to hear. But years worth of studies in neuroscience, as well as new research, suggest that there are, in addition, fundamental aspects of neurochemistry that increase the chance that information obtained under torture will not be truthful."

This is what John mcCain said TODAY:

"“I know from personal experience that the abuse of prisoners will produce more bad than good,” McCain said on the Senate floor Tuesday. “Most of all, I know the use of torture compromises that which most distinguished us from our enemies.”

Here's another one:

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2009/04/top-interrogation-experts-agree-torture-doesnt-work.html

The US jailed people for waterboarding our people. The Geneva Convention categorically defines waterboarding as torture. It's insane to try to justify its use.

There is no way to justify the use of torture. One of the biggest failures of Obama and Holder is not to have investigated and held our torturers responsible for their actions.
 
RJKarl said:
Some say it shouldn't be released. I disagree. If it wasn't, then we could do it again.

To me the most surprising aspect of it was that the CIA Inspector General first told W about the depth of the torture and how often it was used in 2006. How did this happen?

Did Cheney intentionally keep from W?

Did W give instructions that he didn't want to know?

The positive part of this is the IG said W seemed "uncomfortable" with the details. The counterbalance of this is that W had been hearing about allegations for years, why didn't the CIC ask about this for nearly five years?

This was a disgraceful period in our history. It needed to see the light of day.
Click to expand...

So you've read all 525 pages already?
 
RJKarl said:
The US jailed people for waterboarding our people. The Geneva Convention categorically defines waterboarding as torture. It's insane to try to justify its use.

There is no way to justify the use of torture. One of the biggest failures of Obama and Holder is not to have investigated and held our torturers responsible for their actions.
Click to expand...

Contrast this with your view on using drones to execute American citizens without due process.
 
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