Totally Unofficial 2023/24 Premier League Thread

[Gooner]

I'd put GO'N over Iraola today -- and that isn't a slight on Iraola.

Wolves were in shambles preseason and O'Neill has done a masterful job getting them structured.

I think that's a better discussion than Howe somehow sneaking in there, and while I would have Iraola over GON today, I think whoever finishes higher should get the nod which is why doing this before the end of the season is kind of dumb.

Shit, just remove Klopp and have them both in there.

 

[TripleDeacon]

Is that a serious question?

They finished 4th last season and are worse this season... by some distance.

I didn't mean in the discussion to win it, I just meant in the discussion to be amongst the finalists. I don't think most folks outside of Newcastle supporters realize just how many players (important players) were out for them throughout the season. At one point they were naming three goalkeepers on the bench, just to have enough warm bodies! The financial rules have essentially prevented them from buying a bench, so they've been trotting out a lot of youngsters and B team players just to keep afloat. To potentially stay in Europe after everything has gone so wrong this season seemed unthinkable not too long ago. I certainly realize I'm biased, but I also imagine not a whole lot of you follow Newcastle very closely and they certainly don't get a lot of mainstream press, so I was curious.

 

[deacvision7]

Manchester United have had an injury nightmare all season as well. 2 points behind Newcastle

EtH doesn't deserve manager of the year consideration either.

 

[WindyCityDeac]

Sure he probably could be in the discussion, but I think it's sort of the opposite side of the Klopp coin for Howe. Newcastle was expected to seriously contend for top 4 and build on last season, but after a strong start they fell off a cliff during December and January and haven't really threatened to climb back into serious contention for 4th. While they've turned it around since March and are at this point more likely than not going to still end up in a European place, and acknowledging their own injury issues were severe, that midseason dip and not really coming close to meeting expectations even with the injuries doesn't have him over Klopp for me.

I'm more of the thought that the 5th spot should just be axed totally. And that they probably shouldn't be announcing the nominees until after Matchweek 38 anyway. If Villa were to completely implode and Tottenham stole 4th place from them, Emery obviously wouldn't be nominated. That is extremely unlikely to happen, but still possible. Bournemouth could fall all the way to 14th over the next two weeks, and while I still think Iraola has done an amazing job there, if Wolves were to jump up to 10th in the table, would it be outrageous to place GON over Iraola?

If you’ve seen Tottenham the last 4 matches or so you know it is not still possible

 

[Gooner]

Manchester United have had an injury nightmare all season as well. 2 points behind Newcastle

EtH doesn't deserve manager of the year consideration either.

This is factually correct but 25 GD speaks more strongly to me than the 2 point difference. Man U's table position is nothing short of a miracle, Howe's overall performance has been much better than EtH's.

 

[TripleDeacon]

Manchester United have had an injury nightmare all season as well. 2 points behind Newcastle

EtH doesn't deserve manager of the year consideration either.

Yeah, because it's definitely just as easy to have success at Newcastle as it is at Manchester United.

Look man, I've been around here long enough to have learned that you are undePheated when it comes to soccer discussions, so I'm out. Good luck Wednesday afternoon!

 

[Gooner]

Using just the current PL table, here are my manager performance rankings for this season so you have the context I think is relevant:

1. Arteta (if title)/Iraola
2. Iraola/Arteta (if no title)
3. Emery
4. Pep
5. GON
6. Klopp
7. Dyche
8. Glasner (would be way higher if a full season)
9. Howe
10. Ange
11. De Zerbi
12. Poch
13. Moyes
14. Nuno (not going to ding him for Cooper)
15. EtH
16. Frank
17. Silva
18. Edwards
19. Kompany
20. Sheffield United

 

[Gooner]

I didn't mean in the discussion to win it, I just meant in the discussion to be amongst the finalists. I don't think most folks outside of Newcastle supporters realize just how many players (important players) were out for them throughout the season. At one point they were naming three goalkeepers on the bench, just to have enough warm bodies! The financial rules have essentially prevented them from buying a bench, so they've been trotting out a lot of youngsters and B team players just to keep afloat. To potentially stay in Europe after everything has gone so wrong this season seemed unthinkable not too long ago. I certainly realize I'm biased, but I also imagine not a whole lot of you follow Newcastle very closely and they certainly don't get a lot of mainstream press, so I was curious.

I have no sympathy for Newcastle not being able to buy a bench but the significance of the players all being out at the same time is a mitigating factor for Howe IMO. I just don't know that "keeping Newcastle from total debacle" is enough for me to have him truly as a MOTY finalist. But as I said above, I would be more restrictive with nominees if possible.

 

[deacvision7]

Yeah, because it's definitely just as easy to have success at Newcastle as it is at Manchester United.

Look man, I've been around here long enough to have learned that you are undePheated when it comes to soccer discussions, so I'm out. Good luck Wednesday afternoon!

You have Saudi billions behind your club and Newcastle has an amazing fan base. The club was a sleeping giant before Ashley sold it and I wasn't the least bit surprised that they made the CL last season.

But they've regressed this season. Injuries or not. The defending has been much, much worse than last year. 33 goals conceded last season, 56 (with 3 to play) this season. 71 points last season, 56 so far this season.

I think if Newcastle have another season like this one in 2024/25, injuries or not, then people will be calling for Howe to be sacked. Which I think would be a mistake, but that's the kind of disappointing season that I think Newcastle have had considering the investment made in the squad. Brought in Tonali, Barnes, and Livramento while losing Wood and ASM.

And thanks for the early birthday wishes! Appreciated. But United are going to get rolled in the next two fixtures. The side is in shambles.

 

[wsc8521s]

Man City would set an English football record with 16 consecutive wins over the same opponent -- Fulham -- should they win tomorrow. Would be an interesting time for that streak to die

 

[wsc8521s]

Also I don't get ranking Silva or Edwards in the bottom four of managers this season. I'd be very interested in the argument of how EtH/Frank/Moyes/Nuno/Poch have outperformed either of those two. I'd personally have them both over De Zerbi, Ange and Dyche as well

 

[WindyCityDeac]

Also I don't get ranking Silva or Edwards in the bottom four of managers this season. I'd be very interested in the argument of how EtH/Frank/Moyes/Nuno/Poch have outperformed either of those two. I'd personally have them both over De Zerbi, Ange and Dyche as well

Obviously biased but did anyone realistically think Tottenham was going to be a top 5 team in the first year under Ange? After selling Kane and not having a number 9 at all?

 

[Gooner]

Man City would set an English football record with 16 consecutive wins over the same opponent -- Fulham -- should they win tomorrow. Would be an interesting time for that streak to die

They were flying kites on the training ground last week, they have certainly 1, 2, 3, Cancun'd the season. I have zero belief in it being close, let alone them getting a result.

 

[Gooner]

Also I don't get ranking Silva or Edwards in the bottom four of managers this season. I'd be very interested in the argument of how EtH/Frank/Moyes/Nuno/Poch have outperformed either of those two. I'd personally have them both over De Zerbi, Ange and Dyche as well

whispers I kind of only did it to avoid a fight with dv7 about ranking EtH too low, I think he would be easily relegated in the manager table whispers

 

[Gooner]

If I had to rank 10-19 without trying to avoid ruffling any feathers at all:

10) De Zerbi
11) Nuno
12) Frank
13) Silva
14) Ange
15) Edwards
16) Moyes
17) Poch
18) EtH
19) Kompany

 

[Gooner]

I may be biased on the jobs that Glasner and Nuno have done taking over midseason, but re: Forest specifically, it's pretty remarkable Nuno has them relatively safe with how they started the year under Cooper + points deduction. Edwards maybe should be higher but I think there is a cap on how good a management job you have done and still be relegated.

I think EtH and Poch are both doing equally poorly with every resource in the world available to them, but I have Poch ahead because there actually are some signs of life with them.

 

[deacvision7]

whispers I kind of only did it to avoid a fight with dv7 about ranking EtH too low, I think he would be easily relegated in the manager table whispers

No argument

But I still put like 80% of the blame on the players. They have done it under every damn manager since SAF.

 

[deacvision7]

If I had to rank 10-19 without trying to avoid ruffling any feathers at all:

10) De Zerbi
11) Nuno
12) Frank
13) Silva
14) Ange
15) Edwards
16) Moyes
17) Poch
18) EtH
19) Kompany

Has nobody noticed that Brighton have basically fallen off a cliff since the New Year?

League form since Jan 1: DDLWLWDLWLDLDLLW

16 played. 4 wins. 5 draws. 7 losses. 17 points. (that's potentially relegation form)


For comparison. Here is shitty ass Man United's form since Jan 1: DWWWWLLWDLDDWDL

15 played. 6 wins. 5 draws. 4 losses. 23 points.

 

[Gooner]

Has nobody noticed that Brighton have basically fallen off a cliff since the New Year?

League form since Jan 1: DDLWLWDLWLDLDLLW

16 played. 4 wins. 5 draws. 7 losses. 17 points.


For comparison. Here is shitty ass Man United's form since Jan 1: DWWWWLLWDLDDWDL

15 played. 6 wins. 5 draws. 4 losses. 23 points.

I think their 2024 form is tied directly to not being able to score (15 goals in 17 games, 5 of which came against Sheffield United in one game), and not being able to score goals for them is pretty clearly down to injuries. Enciso was out for months, finally comes back in February only for Mitoma to go down with a season-ending injury. Joao Pedro was out for 6 games towards the beginning of the year, comes back only to see Ferguson be out for the season right away. Solly March out for the season since October, Ansu Fati missed a chunk of time at the turn of the year, Mitoma and Adingra both injured + on international duty in January, they pretty much haven't been able to put together a PL-caliber attack for more than a couple of games in 2024.

I don't mean for this to be an excuse for Brighton or some sort of absolution for De Zerbi, but their leading attackers in PL starts this season are Simon Adingra at 22, Danny Welbeck at 19, Joao Pedro at 17. Ferguson made 4 starts in 2024, Mitoma only 2. And though Brighton are masters of finding diamonds in the rough, they have never been known for their depth. They have had pretty outrageous injury luck the last two seasons with almost no significant injuries to their best players, but you can see when they do, they have squad issues.

Why that matters is that even though Manchester United has been pretty snakebitten with injuries as well, your backups are still PL-experienced players or fairly highly rated young players. And Manchester United's issues revolve much more around a complete inability to defend anyone, something I attribute more to tactical acumen and a manager's abilities than I do pure ability to score goals. EtH seems unwilling, if not actually incapable, of setting up the team to just stem the tide at times, in addition to all of the other issues. From what I have watched of Brighton (which is surprisingly a lot, they always seem to have one of the mid-morning streaming slots that I use to wake myself up on the weekends), De Zerbi was willing, and over the period of time up to the turn of the year had shown himself capable, of setting up a budget team for success.

Is this way too much thought put into why I still rate De Zerbi as having done a decent job this season all things considered. You bet your ass it is. But it's a slow Friday evening and I had the time.

 

[deacvision7]

Oh goodie. Yet another example of injuries being used as an excuse! haha jkjk

But, it is almost like injuries are to be expected and something that a manager should expect and have a plan for in which to overcome said injuries. Maybe not to the extent that Man United or Brighton have suffered in particular areas (CB for MUFC, attackers for BHA), but we all expect injuries to hit our teams throughout the course of the season. It's sports.

And, to be clear, I rate De Zerbi very, very, highly. I think he's a superb manager. But he hasn't been at his best this season adjusting to not having his top choice XI week in, week out. That's where managers truly earn their stripes, IMO. SAF was a master as squeezing maximum juice out of an injury riddled squad. Wenger too. And that is something that I always thought highly of ol' 'Arry as well. Dude could chop and change and keep on chugging because the system was so strong.

Your points about EtH and his inability to adjust to just horrid injury luck (or is it his training methods?) is the biggest blight against him that I can see this season. But the guy can set up a solid defense as the club led the lead in clean sheets just last season. Man United have started with 14 different CB pairings in the PL this season. FOURTEEN! Last season it was just 6. But, counter to that point, is that Man United have been wide open in the midfield since the very first match against Wolves. Just carved apart time and time again and EtH hasn't found the solution and/or the players haven't done the required adjustments requested. Neither of which looks particularly good for the manager.