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Transgender Athletes

ok, so respond to the concept of changing the categorization for individual athletes from sex/age to some combination of size/age

I was a swim parent for many years and I saw Olympic qualifiers of both genders

my response to this concept is that boys would win at every size with credible numbers of participants
 
ok, so respond to the concept of changing the categorization for individual athletes from sex/age to some combination of size/age
Ok I'll try to respond to your post about "resetting" for height and weight. Not sure I understand how it would work. For example:

In high school during cross country season I was roughly the same height and weight as most of the elite female athletes. I was mediocre among men but faster than all but two or three women in the United States.

How would this common phenomenon be negotiated using your (and birdman's) solution?
 
my response to this concept is that boys would win at every size with credible numbers of participants

Yes, this is undoubtedly the case across most sports.

In swimming and track where you *can* objectively compare performances it's abundantly clear. That's why events from "fun run 5ks" to the Boston Marathon offer a "1st place female" trophy even if she comes in 85th place in the race.

*that said, this doesn't change the fact that treating trans athletes like cheaters or fakers is cruel and unnecessary and political bs
 
I was a swim parent for many years and I saw Olympic qualifiers of both genders

my response to this concept is that boys would win at every size with credible numbers of participants

I don't think size and age would be the only classification system. I said physical metrics. The number and type of metrics would depend on the sport of course, but I'd suggest we could measure testosterone levels as a metric for classification in a wide variety of competitions.

Or, we could just set handicaps based on testosterone levels, size, and age. Then the race itself is a free for all and the results aren't sorted out until after all the handicaps are added...they do this in mix fleet sailing races all the time.
 
Ok I'll try to respond to your post about "resetting" for height and weight. Not sure I understand how it would work. For example:

In high school during cross country season I was roughly the same height and weight as most of the elite female athletes. I was mediocre among men but faster than all but two or three women in the United States.

How would this common phenomenon be negotiated using your (and birdman's) solution?

See my other post. My "solution" was not intended to be solely based on size and age.
 
Ok I'll try to respond to your post about "resetting" for height and weight. Not sure I understand how it would work. For example:

In high school during cross country season I was roughly the same height and weight as most of the elite female athletes. I was mediocre among men but faster than all but two or three women in the United States.

How would this common phenomenon be negotiated using your (and birdman's) solution?

i don't know. the conversation is getting a ton of anecdotal pushback - but, for example, "HS" includes participants has a wild age range, for example. some schools don't ahve JV and Varsity squads.

maybe at ages 17-19 men 95% outperform but maybe not 14-16.
 
Yes, this is undoubtedly the case across most sports.

In swimming and track where you *can* objectively compare performances it's abundantly clear. That's why events from "fun run 5ks" to the Boston Marathon offer a "1st place female" trophy even if she comes in 85th place in the race.

*that said, this doesn't change the fact that treating trans athletes like cheaters or fakers is cruel and unnecessary and political bs

Really? Are this swimmer and her coach too daft to realize that she's physically superior to her opponents and that's it's obviously related to her male genetics ? Or are they cheats and fakes ?
 
I don't think size and age would be the only classification system. I said physical metrics. The number and type of metrics would depend on the sport of course, but I'd suggest we could measure testosterone levels as a metric for classification in a wide variety of competitions.

Or, we could just set handicaps based on testosterone levels, size, and age. Then the race itself is a free for all and the results aren't sorted out until after all the handicaps are added...they do this in mix fleet sailing races all the time.
So would every male, regardless of ability, be handicapped for having higher-than-female testosterone? As you suggest, each sport would require its own metrics, but I also can't help thinking of Vonnegut and Harrison Bergeron

Again, this is an interesting thought experiment and I'm enjoying discussing it

I'm surprised, birdman, that you're thinking this way with your training re: sexual dimorphism and biological diversity. As a humanist, I try to acknowledge and even accentuate difference as much as possible because I feel like that's important in identifying things like structural discrimination and cultural richness.
 
Really? Are this swimmer and her coach too daft to realize that she's physically superior to her opponents and that's it's obviously related to her male genetics ? Or are they cheats and fakes ?
My impulse is to suggest that the coach may be the cheat here, if we have to identify one. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the trans athlete
 
i don't know. the conversation is getting a ton of anecdotal pushback - but, for example, "HS" includes participants has a wild age range, for example. some schools don't ahve JV and Varsity squads.

maybe at ages 17-19 men 95% outperform but maybe not 14-16.
Again in these two sports we have actual data. Google the results for any high school cross country race -- perhaps a local-to-you high school dual meet; a big invitational; and the high school national championships (used to be Footlocker in my day, not sure who sponsors now).

More anecdotes: when I was in high school forever ago our 5k standard for varsity "lettering" was 18:30 for boys and 22:30 for girls. Pretty striking difference, but roughly the same number of athletes achieved it on each side. Once every few years we'd have a girl that could achieve the standard for boys but there were also dozens of boys every year who could not achieve the girls' standard
 
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Going through the transition process to win races and set records is a he'll of a difficult journey for the international disdain and vitriol this young person is going through - its no longer a private matter.

I guess we'll have her answer after she runs out of eligibility and transitions back...
 
Everyone should just run/swim their own race by themselves. That way all the little snowflakes can each win a state title and all you libtards can be happy.
 
Everyone should just run/swim their own race by themselves. That way all the little snowflakes can each win a state title and all you libtards can be happy.

Narrator: They will never be happy.
 
It is science that the major muscular development differences between men and women, can be undone with hormone modifications. Somethings are fixed after puberty, you're right, like height and bone size and genitals are obviously only modified through surgical intervention, but, the functioning of the genitals can be shut down with hormone treatments and the muscular differences can mostly be reversed in about a year. I am not going to keep repeating this, because you will just keep coming back with, "but it feels like this shouldn't be true." The comparisons I made are valid because once you take away testosterone we are talking about lung capacity and height differences between women, which would be the same for birth gendered woman that grew tall as for a birth gendered man / trans woman that grew tall, but we single out the trans woman because the reason she grew tall was elevated testosterone at age 16.

I'm not saying "but it feels like this shouldn't be true" - what I am saying is that, from what I have read, it hasn't proven to be true in the field. You say the muscular differences can be reversed in a about a year. But I believe this swimmer has been undergoing treatments for over a year and I would say the results she is achieving make it pretty clear that the differences have not been reversed. Perhaps in another year or two they will and she will fall back into more typical results for a female swimmer? I don't know.
 
I don't think size and age would be the only classification system. I said physical metrics. The number and type of metrics would depend on the sport of course, but I'd suggest we could measure testosterone levels as a metric for classification in a wide variety of competitions.

Or, we could just set handicaps based on testosterone levels, size, and age. Then the race itself is a free for all and the results aren't sorted out until after all the handicaps are added...they do this in mix fleet sailing races all the time.

I appreciate the fact that you are thinking outside the box to come up with a solution. I think that is what is going to have to happen at some point.

I don't know that much about testosterone levels - how much do they vary naturally? Like if you tested 100 born male athletes would their testosterone levels all fall within a pretty narrow range - or what? Do champion athletes within a gender typically have higher testosterone levels than lower performing athletes (assuming none of them are juicing)?
 
Really? Are this swimmer and her coach too daft to realize that she's physically superior to her opponents and that's it's obviously related to her male genetics ? Or are they cheats and fakes ?

Why are these the only options? They obviously know she is physically superior - they can see the results. But if she is transitioning and has followed her conference requirements for competing, the coach is obligated to let her compete, right? By definition it isn't cheating. Isn't they what many of you are arguing for? I haven't seen anyone say she is faking just so she can win.
 
Everyone should just run/swim their own race by themselves. That way all the little snowflakes can each win a state title and all you libtards can be happy.

oh no, your feelings are hurt. well, im glad you're able to acknowledge and share it.
 
So would every male, regardless of ability, be handicapped for having higher-than-female testosterone? As you suggest, each sport would require its own metrics, but I also can't help thinking of Vonnegut and Harrison Bergeron

Again, this is an interesting thought experiment and I'm enjoying discussing it

I'm surprised, birdman, that you're thinking this way with your training re: sexual dimorphism and biological diversity. As a humanist, I try to acknowledge and even accentuate difference as much as possible because I feel like that's important in identifying things like structural discrimination and cultural richness.

I haven't worked out all the kinks of this "solution" so maybe a handicapping system doesn't work. But I do think, just like in wrestling, you could build more than just boy/girl classification systems that don't pit very tall heavily testosteroned females against short low testosteroned females. If we are so concerned about the fairness of transwomen competing against other women, where does the concern stop? Is it "fair" for tall women to race against short women? Super buff dudes, to compete against small dudes in weight lifting? If the true issue for conservatives is fairness in competition, then it should go further than just trans athletes, or what is to stop it from going further?

From my biologically informed perspective there is individual variation among competitors. Splitting competition up into genders is an attempt to control for some of that variation among men and women and make things "fair" for women. But, gender fluidity undermines that singular classification system so some kind of a classification system that accounts for more than just male vs female variability seems warranted.

Plus, sex determination is not as hard wired in animals as people want to believe. Plenty of species regularly switch sexes. Some as a matter of life history progression (i.e., they are males when they are small because sperm are easy and cheap to produce, and females when they are large because eggs require energy and size to make and store), some as a matter of environmental conditions (e.g., if sex female to male ratio declines, larger males will start switching to female). It happens in fish, amphibians, reptiles and even birds. It is actually really common in tropical reef fish and salt water fish as a whole. It is pretty rare in mammals to fully switch sexes because our organ structures are so specialized they are difficult to modify once built. But sex determination, especially sexual behavior, is governed by hormones. However, if a genetic male experience reduced testosterone levels during development, they may actually develop as female. Further, adjustments in hormone production or reception can alter sexual function and behavior in mammals. Just for example, there are plenty of studies on how BPA, a chemical in plastics, functions as a hormone disruptor for testosterone and can reduce and even cease sperm production, reduces sex drive and in extreme cases can lead to developing secondary sex characteristics (e.g., moobs) in human males. (all of this ignores the fact that sex is biological and gender it's self is cultural.) So, I don't adhere to stick definitions of gender because my biological training tells me it's inaccurate.
 
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