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Transgender Athletes

Deacfreak07 said:
Lia Thomas is a trans woman who happened to swim at the college level. Not the ambassador for anything.
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And Charles Barkley wasn't a role model.

My most frequented subreddits are:
r/UkrainianConflict
r/UkraineWarVideoReport
 
Deacfreak07 said:
Lia Thomas is a trans woman who happened to swim at the college level. Not the ambassador for anything.
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awfully clever to change genders, medically suppress your hormones at your athletic peak, in order to become the 36th ranked women’s swimmer in the country and share a locker room with Riley Gaines a few times.
 
One of the greatest woman’s swimmer, Katie Ledecky, when in a swim cap looks wait for it…….. a man.
 
pinochadeac said:
Their identity isn't bullshit.. slow down! It's how they were born. However, they must know that the body will never catch up to their identity. Science can make a penis, but it's going to require a Reebok pump to work. Science can make a vagina, but not a child-bearing womb. Thus, physically trans-women are trans-women.

What does deny their existence mean? Specifically are you saying that waiting until they are 18 for gender affirming care denies their existence. I would imagine gender affirming care will track abortion rights on a state by state basis. Then there are lots of religious exemptions and anti-DEI stuff that discuss labels.
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I wasn't necessarily saying you thought identity is bullshit. But it is one of very few ways to interpret "By saying "transwomen are women", and acting like you can't tell that she used to be a he, I think you asking everyone to pretend that what is obvious isn't obvious. It's a real Ron Wellman, basketball situation. It's disingenuous at best and trans people must know that people are just playing along. They aren't dumb." This statement strongly implies that the sexual binary is absolute and that those claiming to be trans are 1) willfully deceitful (identity is bullshit), 2) mentally incapable of understanding their own sex and gender (disability) or 3) under a delusion concerning sex and gender (which would classify as a psychotic mental disorder). But when you say that you have sympathy for someone because they were born that way, but then are also saying that they are and only are whatever gender they were assigned at birth, you are pushing toward the latter two explanations - they are incapable of understanding the "truth" about sex and gender, or they are under a delusion concerning their sex and gender. But the implication here is that there is something lesser, broken, wrong (functionally, not morally, in your argument) about their understanding of their own body - and since there is no known way to "cure" body dysmorphia, the next best thing to offer gender affirming care and alleviate distress. But there is no mistake - it is their understanding/experience of sex and gender that is abnormal, not our insisting on a sex and gender binary.

This is what I am meaning when I say that these positions deny their existence. It presents being trans as an anomaly/abnormality/deviance from from the "correct understanding" of sex and gender (which can be met with compassion or disdain) rather than a valid existence as part of a much more complex understanding along a spectrum/continuum of gender and expressions of sex. By treating it as a disorder (of whatever kind - physical, mental, moral), this affects how laws and policies are written - which does bring us to limitations/prohibitions of gender-affirming care. In many ways, denial of gender affirming care exacerbates the sports issues this discussion began with.

For example - hormone blockers. In many states where there are anti-gender affirming care laws, it would limit hormone blockers until someone 16 or 18. Hormone blockers are completely reversible, in that a person would resume male/female puberty whenever they come off of them if not also receiving accompanying HRT (which would direct puberty according to those hormones). This just pauses puberty to give time and space for understanding of sex and gender for the child (and always in conjunction with parents, primary care physicians, endocrinologists, and therapists). These laws start with the assumption that the existence of trans individuals is not a complete or valid existence and gender affirming care is harmful (or at least more harmful than allowing the gender affirming care). Honestly, this undercuts the sports concerns. If transwomen were allowed receive gender affirming care at the advent of puberty, they would undergo male puberty, gaining that "advantage." It is also much easier of a transition to begin before puberty than after (which is much better for mental health, etc). I can almost guarantee you that trans individuals that received age-appropriate gender-affirming care, you would not be able to tell from appearance whether an individual is cis or trans.
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
awfully clever to change genders, medically suppress your hormones at your athletic peak, in order to become the 36th ranked women’s swimmer in the country and share a locker room with Riley Gaines a few times.
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36th?!?! Lia was ranked 68th as a junior when she competed against men. This is all over a competitor moving up the ranks 28 spots between junior and senior seasons?
 
IamThunderbolt said:
I wasn't necessarily saying you thought identity is bullshit. But it is one of very few ways to interpret "By saying "transwomen are women", and acting like you can't tell that she used to be a he, I think you asking everyone to pretend that what is obvious isn't obvious. It's a real Ron Wellman, basketball situation. It's disingenuous at best and trans people must know that people are just playing along. They aren't dumb." This statement strongly implies that the sexual binary is absolute and that those claiming to be trans are 1) willfully deceitful (identity is bullshit), 2) mentally incapable of understanding their own sex and gender (disability) or 3) under a delusion concerning sex and gender (which would classify as a psychotic mental disorder). But when you say that you have sympathy for someone because they were born that way, but then are also saying that they are and only are whatever gender they were assigned at birth, you are pushing toward the latter two explanations - they are incapable of understanding the "truth" about sex and gender, or they are under a delusion concerning their sex and gender. But the implication here is that there is something lesser, broken, wrong (functionally, not morally, in your argument) about their understanding of their own body - and since there is no known way to "cure" body dysmorphia, the next best thing to offer gender affirming care and alleviate distress. But there is no mistake - it is their understanding/experience of sex and gender that is abnormal, not our insisting on a sex and gender binary.

This is what I am meaning when I say that these positions deny their existence. It presents being trans as an anomaly/abnormality/deviance from from the "correct understanding" of sex and gender (which can be met with compassion or disdain) rather than a valid existence as part of a much more complex understanding along a spectrum/continuum of gender and expressions of sex. By treating it as a disorder (of whatever kind - physical, mental, moral), this affects how laws and policies are written - which does bring us to limitations/prohibitions of gender-affirming care. In many ways, denial of gender affirming care exacerbates the sports issues this discussion began with.

For example - hormone blockers. In many states where there are anti-gender affirming care laws, it would limit hormone blockers until someone 16 or 18. Hormone blockers are completely reversible, in that a person would resume male/female puberty whenever they come off of them if not also receiving accompanying HRT (which would direct puberty according to those hormones). This just pauses puberty to give time and space for understanding of sex and gender for the child (and always in conjunction with parents, primary care physicians, endocrinologists, and therapists). These laws start with the assumption that the existence of trans individuals is not a complete or valid existence and gender affirming care is harmful (or at least more harmful than allowing the gender affirming care). Honestly, this undercuts the sports concerns. If transwomen were allowed receive gender affirming care at the advent of puberty, they would undergo male puberty, gaining that "advantage." It is also much easier of a transition to begin before puberty than after (which is much better for mental health, etc). I can almost guarantee you that trans individuals that received age-appropriate gender-affirming care, you would not be able to tell from appearance whether an individual is cis or trans.
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I am heavily involved in youth and school sports, and the exclusion of trans people from youth sports is nowhere near the top of what should be legislated to ensure fairness. I've been involved in thousands of games, and maybe seen two or three trans people play, and I don't think their ability, or lack thereof, had much of an effect on the outcome either way. Reclassification and homeschooling, on the other hand, have a massive effect on competitive advantage. If anything in youth sports needs to be addressed via legislation to ensure competitive balance, it is those two factors. A 16 year old playing against a 12 year old has a much bigger competitive advantage than a trans person playing against a non-trans person of the same age.

That said, I do have a question regarding your explanation. On one hand you are saying that being trans is not a disorder or mental illness. On the other, you are saying they need "care" via blockers or HRT. Care would usually imply that something is wrong. So how can one receive care if there is not something not working correctly to care for? I don't know whether it is or it isn't, but I ask that question as the parent of a child with a major disability, who gets a decent amount of benefit from the ADA in other aspects of life and once in a while for sports. We don't deny he has a disability - he has it and we care for it. I don't try to say that he is normal, he isn't. From strictly a legal standpoint, it would seem to make sense to classify it as a disability and then utilize the existing legal framework to get the benefits of addressing that disability via accommodations. Gender doesn't match sex, for whatever reason. Okay fine, can that not be admitted as a disability the same way plenty of other things are considered disabilities because they are not considered normal? Otherwise it is in this gray area of saying it is not a disability but nonetheless needs to be cared for, which doesn't generally track with other situations.

Again, I don't have a problem with them playing, but if the end goal is to force inclusion against those unwilling, then there is already a beneficial legal framework set up to do that. It would seem the easiest path would be to get inside that framework rather than create a new framework.
 
These 2 morons.. Katie Ledecky is very manly and neither her nor Lia Thomas get me hard. You also need to learn to read Wikipedia better:
In the 2018–2019 season she was, when competing in the men's team, ranked 554th in the 200 freestyle, 65th in the 500 freestyle, and 32nd in the 1650 freestyle. In the 2021–2022 season, those ranks are now, when competing in the women's team, fifth in the 200 freestyle, first in the 500 freestyle, and eighth in the 1650 freestyle.[20][21]

Thunderbolt, thank you for continuing to respond. I am not sure I fully agree with this construct:

This statement strongly implies that the sexual binary is absolute and that those claiming to be trans are
1) willfully deceitful (identity is bullshit)
2) mentally incapable of understanding their own sex and gender (disability)
3) under a delusion concerning sex and gender (which would classify as a psychotic mental disorder).

Said in my own words
1) "I am not really a woman, but I am going to pretend to be just for fun" - unlikely
2) "I am just confused" - unlikely
3) "I am mentally disabled and believe that I am a woman" - agree that this would be a mental disorder
I believe a variation of 3:
4) "I am of sound mind and know that I am a woman living in the wrong body, and I want to fix my body to align with my mind" - no mental, but physical disorder

and then to use your words again:
Since there is no known way to "cure" body dysmorphia, the next best thing to offer gender affirming care and alleviate distress. This condition should be met with compassion.

Why couldn't that be your path towards legal gender affirming care? They need help for a physical limitation and here is the the treatment.. I mean elite female gymnasts delay puberty until they are done competing. Trans children delaying puberty until they are old enough to make a life altering decision (surgery) seems like a reasonable course of action.

This argument also works way better with people who believe in binary sex, and doesn't understand gender spectrums.

"You deny my child's existence" is a marketing phrase that means nothing. "Yep, your kid exists. I see them."

What you really mean is, "My kid is trapped in the wrong body and puberty is going to make her look like a man, so we need to stop that from happening until my kid is old enough to have the surgery she needs. Can you please allow me to do this, Mr. Senator, because my doctor is cool with it (so I don't understand why I even have to ask you)"

And I get it that if you stop puberty, the whole sports problem goes away..
 
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2&2 Slider To Leyritz said:
That said, I do have a question regarding your explanation. On one hand you are saying that being trans is not a disorder or mental illness. On the other, you are saying they need "care" via blockers or HRT. Care would usually imply that something is wrong. So how can one receive care if there is not something not working correctly to care for?
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There are various medical conditions that require hormone treatment, plenty of those medical conditions involve testosterone or estrogen. It’s fair to say that we generally can trust people to report when their body doesn’t feel right - your brain tells you that your body should feel like x when it feels like y.

If a 35yo man goes to the doctor reporting of low sex drive, lethargy, etc. the doctor will make suggestions to improve those conditions, probably not say “well obviously your genetics must be the cause of this, and we don’t want to go against nature”.
 
birdman said:
I love how pinocha is now here pretending like he really values the rational reasoned engagement from IAT, after he repeatedly posted about chicks with dicks in the previous 10 pages.
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Chicks with dicks is a slur. Show me where I typed that.

And you can rephrase my last sentence to make it in my normal phrasing:
"My daughter has a penis and puberty is going to make her look like a man, so we need to stop that from happening until my kid is old enough to have the surgery she needs. Can you please allow me to do this, Mr. Senator, because my doctor is cool with it (so I don't understand why I even have to ask you)"

Same statement.
 
I'm quite sure everyone understood "daughters with penises" to be merely an effort to come across as technical and lacking emotive intent.
 
pinochadeac said:
Chicks with dicks is a slur. Show me where I typed that.

And you can rephrase my last sentence to make it in my normal phrasing:
"My daughter has a penis and puberty is going to make her look like a man, so we need to stop that from happening until my kid is old enough to have the surgery she needs. Can you please allow me to do this, Mr. Senator, because my doctor is cool with it (so I don't understand why I even have to ask you)"

Same statement.
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My bad. Everyone please witness my public apology to pinocha. I said he posted about "chicks with dicks" when what he actually said was:
pinochadeac said:
It's not about protecting fragile white men.

It's about protecting competition and the just out of this world thinking that it would take to think that putting a man, with a cock, against an ole fashioned, menstruating woman is fair.

If my daughter gets beat by a dude, I'm going to be pissed. Sorry.

And most men think girl on girl action is hot, but that dudes in dresses are not. If the LBGTQ+2SA movement has taught us anything, it's that we need to respect what makes our dicks erect. Why are you judging?
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pinochadeac said:
Yeah, that jackoff monitoring is epic level strange. Dad, I do it every day. You wanna watch or something?

Still has nothing to do with people with cocks swimming against women.
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pinochadeac said:
Ah.. Daughters with penises?
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You can see for you self my obviously and huge error, that he never used the word, "dick." He instead used the word "cock" and once the more mature "penis." So, lets let's give him the respect that he deserves in this discussion and I apologize.
 
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