RChildress107
Well-known member
Yeah I think I'm going to go with the guy who lives within driving distance of Ukraine over the guy who may or may not believe the world is 10,000 years old.
Ukraine and Western Media Distortions
- Thread starter Lectro
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Yeah I think I'm going to go with the guy who lives within driving distance of Ukraine over the guy who may or may not believe the world is 10,000 years old.
What,Childress, can he see it from his back door?
I'll take this report and it's credentials over either of us.
Originally Posted by vadimivich
I hate agreeing with Lectro even the tiniest bit - but yes, there are some very nasty people with deep connections to Svoboda who are part of the new Ukrainian government.
European right wing nationalism doesn't have to make sense these days, and anti-semetism and fascism aren't the same thing - you can be anti-semetic and left wing (see groups in France) and you can be ultra right wing and Jewish (see many parties in central and eastern europe). The confusion of fascism and anti-semetism as being the same thing just because Hitler and his crew were both is flat out wrong.
Agree. In the Ukraine you have a variety of fascists on both sides of this dispute.
We just happen to be in bed with the Nazi party - which I would think could prove somewhat troublesome for the average OGB'er.
Gee, Vid misspelling of "semitism" is unsettling and bespeaks of something lacking,no? What say you,Cap'n Strunk.
I hate agreeing with Lectro even the tiniest bit - but yes, there are some very nasty people with deep connections to Svoboda who are part of the new Ukrainian government.
European right wing nationalism doesn't have to make sense these days, and anti-semetism and fascism aren't the same thing - you can be anti-semetic and left wing (see groups in France) and you can be ultra right wing and Jewish (see many parties in central and eastern europe). The confusion of fascism and anti-semetism as being the same thing just because Hitler and his crew were both is flat out wrong.
Agree. In the Ukraine you have a variety of fascists on both sides of this dispute.
We just happen to be in bed with the Nazi party - which I would think could prove somewhat troublesome for the average OGB'er.
Gee, Vid misspelling of "semitism" is unsettling and bespeaks of something lacking,no? What say you,Cap'n Strunk.
ImTheCaptain
I disagree with you
i'll take a typo over a lazy lie about an OS autocorrection
vadimivich
Well-known member
I literally have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.
I've lived in Russia. I speak Russian. I'm of Russian origins. I know what I'm talking about here (well, mostly). Putin's government draws much of it's strength from the right wing nationalists that are abundant in Russia, and which are the driving force on the ground in Ukraine. They are the ones instigating things in Ukraine, as they have been back home in Russia for a while. Russia is, in many ways, a total right wing autocracy at this point and there's plenty of armed thugs with extreme right links all over the country and in the rest of the Russian influenced parts of the world. 15 years of fighting ethnic conflicts in the south of Russia has created an entire generation of armed, ignorant and ultra-nationalist goons. That guy you showed a picture of wearing the "I am Russian" shirt is just part of that sad breed that is far too common in Russia right now.
The same is true in Ukraine - the right wing nationalists have a huge hold on the popular governance and far too much influence. Parties like Svoboda have no place in modern society, and are a stain on their country. Same with many other ultra right win nationalist groups all over Europe right now. That's what I was trying to point in the quote you grabbed from me far earlier in the thread - there aren't good guys on either side here, it's virulently racist right wing nationalists on both sides (Russian and Ukrainian) that are driving this entire conflict. The US getting involved and backing the Svoboda led group in Ukraine was a big mistake, but so would be backing the Russian elements. There's just no side to pick at all here that isn't disgusting.
RChildress107
Well-known member
Deacon923
Scooter Banks
there is no good reason for the US to be involved anywhere in this for the reasons pointed out by Vad and, less articulately, by Lectro. Unfortunately our involvement is not entirely voluntary. Decisions were made in the 90s to extend NATO protection to Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, which all border on Russia and have sizable Russian minorities. We now have to demonstrate to Russia that we take this sort of thing seriously because the same Russian playbook could be used in those three nations some day, and we have to demonstrate the same to our NATO allies to make sure they keep their resolve.
Probably would have been better to stay out of Russia's patch in the 90s. Now we're stuck in it like the proverbial tar baby. let's hope it doesn't suck us in any deeper. And let's further hope that someone, somewhere in Foggy Bottom is learning a lesson about extending our reach farther than our grasp.
Probably would have been better to stay out of Russia's patch in the 90s. Now we're stuck in it like the proverbial tar baby. let's hope it doesn't suck us in any deeper. And let's further hope that someone, somewhere in Foggy Bottom is learning a lesson about extending our reach farther than our grasp.
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vad with no mercy!
Oh,the guy has followed his wife to Russia and now he's an authority on Nazism.
The Nazis are who we are aligned with. We align with all manner of Nationalists and Far Right groups but never can I recall the U.S. getting into bed with self professed Nazis. Do you see any scenario where you would support David Duke or the recent shooter, Miller?
I understand fascists. We have them here in the states...but I can distinguish between the Koch brothers and the KKK.
Between our outlandish support of Svoboda and the utterly dispicable elements we back in Syria. Just makes you shake your head.
Beyond all of that,the U.S. actively undermined a democratically elected government and is now complaining as the tables are reversed again. Make no mistake, the United States of American started what will end in civil war. This is all over a 5 billion dollar investment that the deposed Ukrainian president bailed on...essentially refusing a Greek-styled haircut for the Russians actually purchasing 10 billion dollars of Ukrainian issued bonds. He took the best deal for his people but,alas,it wasn't good for the Billionaire Oil Men (and princess Tymoshenko) of the Ukraine. We had people actively doling money out to insurgents...bread and candy from Victoria Nuland -- film of which is easily available.
We sit and moan about Syria and Iran (Russian energy partners)and we are bed with the Saudis who are normally ranked number 1 in the world for human rights violations.
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vadimivich
Well-known member
What part of the fact I'm of Russian descent and speak Russian (and am quite familiar with Russia) do you not understand? The fact that my wife is a former Soviet States scholar is a big reason she's my wife.
Otherwise, I generally agree with you to an extent. The USA has blindly backed some very unsavory characters in Ukraine, Syria, Egypt and other recent flashpoints.
Ukraine has no monopoly on fascism though (Naziism not so much, what you see there is a different flavor than what you get in Sweden or parts of Germany/Austria/Switzerland/Croatia). Russia is just as bad, or worse. I have no idea why you have to see this as black and white and not black and black.
Thanks for the post Vad. I appreciate the depth you bring and I have a better grasp of how many different strains of Fascists we have swirling around the Ukrainian situation.
Having lived 2 years in Lyon and Rome I saw the more developed, PR savvy brands like the le Pens.
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Dude, you got smoked on this thread.
I doubt that. I learned some from Vad,but I have lived and seen first hand the European brands of Fascism. A few of of these western (U.S.) backed versions are truly repugnant . You have good sense. Don't you have anything better to say than this piss poor "nanny nanny boo-boo bullshit" when your country is actively courting Nazis? Did you not read anything I posted about Svoboda?No, you didn't Gd it. If you had the you'd have realized that you tacitly support some shit that is a fuck lot worse than some miserable GD rancher in Nevada. You wouldn't find yourself in league with ol' Bundy, would ya.
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ImTheCaptain
I disagree with you
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Ok. Here, let me give it a try Cap.
3 months before the manufactured coup...listen, and try,try,try and learn. I know you struggle but I want you to grow out of this pubescent phase of idealism draped in youthful ignorance.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CL_GShyGv3o
Victoria and Geoffrey are caught red handed. Funny seeing Geoffrey at the forefront of current administration talking points.
3 months before the manufactured coup...listen, and try,try,try and learn. I know you struggle but I want you to grow out of this pubescent phase of idealism draped in youthful ignorance.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CL_GShyGv3o
Victoria and Geoffrey are caught red handed. Funny seeing Geoffrey at the forefront of current administration talking points.