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Ukraine is game to you?

myDeaconmyhand said:
You have repeated a version of this twice now - I have never claimed to be the only moral person or the only one who knows history. I believe this discussion deserves greater context and nuance than “Biden should sanction Russia into the stoneage” and “Russians will eat the rich”
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What are the other options? Engage in direct combat with Russia? Let Russia get away with invading another country?

I suspect the hope here is that Putin gives up in a couple days and we reinstall them in Swift and things go back to the way they were a few months ago. So hopefully it’s really only a threat of economic collapse but that Putin ceases hostilities before any permanent damage is done to the Russian people.

I’ll also say, there is a lot of sympathy for the poor innocent Russian people, but there are ~400,000 innocent Ukrainian refugees in Poland and Moldova right now. There are no good solutions in war. Poor people die and some of the rich and powerful get richer and more powerful.
 
The idea the Russians will eat the rich is naive. They tried that in 1917 and just created a new and even more brutal elite in the name of the "people". Then they tried it again and it ultimately led largely to a recycling of the USSR elite. There's also extreme corruption and a ton of organized crime within the country - not exactly an environment for eating the rich.

Also the idea the failure of Russia to become a democracy is down to our lack of aid strikes me an an extremely awkward historical take. The USSR was not just the break up of a government but of numerous distinct peoples. I traveled all over the country west of the Urals in the lead up to the disintegration - from Tblisi to Leningrad. Not one of the non-Russian republics I visited had any interest in remaining tied to Russia. All had a lot of disdain for Russia. That alone says there was not a chance in hell our government was going to aid our way to a democracy. Never mind we're talking about a general situation where we had no control and little / limited real influence. There was a ton of internal strife in the USSR as to whether and how much to reform up to the dissolution of the nation.

I do think concerns about who ultimately steps into the void if Putin is ousted is a fair concern. But when he's threatening to use nukes on the rest of the world that seems like a risk you are more than comfortable taking.
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
You have repeated a version of this twice now - I have never claimed to be the only moral person or the only one who knows history. I believe this discussion deserves greater context and nuance than “Biden should sanction Russia into the stoneage” and “Russians will eat the rich”
Click to expand...

That “context and nuance” is what we all know. You’re not offering anything different, just critiques. “You’re wrong!” or “What you think will happen is bad” is not nuance. It’s very possible nothing that happens here will improve Russia. If you offered new ideas and paths forward, maybe that could be considered nuance.
 
PhDeac said:
That “context and nuance” is what we all know. You’re not offering anything different, just critiques. “You’re wrong!” or “What you think will happen is bad” is not nuance. It’s very possible nothing that happens here will improve Russia. If you offered new ideas and paths forward, maybe that could be considered nuance.
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You aren’t the thread police Ph, I have a right to respond to what you post - I don’t need to create new foreign policy from whole cloth while you all just repeat the same shit. “We all already know that” isn’t the most interesting content either, especially considering you aren’t posting as such. Honestly man, fuck you. I put a lot more thought and effort into my post than 75% of the low effort posts on this thread. There’s room in the conversation for more than just no commentary tweet posts.
 
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DeacMan said:
Also the idea the failure of Russia to become a democracy is down to our lack of aid strikes me an an extremely awkward historical take. The USSR was not just the break up of a government but of numerous distinct peoples. I traveled all over the country west of the Urals in the lead up to the disintegration - from Tblisi to Leningrad. Not one of the non-Russian republics I visited had any interest in remaining tied to Russia. All had a lot of disdain for Russia. That alone says there was not a chance in hell our government was going to aid our way to a democracy. Never mind we're talking about a general situation where we had no control and little / limited real influence. There was a ton of internal strife in the USSR as to whether and how much to reform up to the dissolution of the nation.
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Your completely dismissing the economic catastrophe and subsequent western advantage taking during the USSR dissolution is extremely ahistorical. No matter what anecdotal feelings you may have gathered from the people you met, the formulation of modern Russia was extremely influenced by economic plight directly orchestrated by the West.
 
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DeacMan said:
The idea the Russians will eat the rich is naive. They tried that in 1917 and just created a new and even more brutal elite in the name of the "people". Then they tried it again and it ultimately led largely to a recycling of the USSR elite. There's also extreme corruption and a ton of organized crime within the country - not exactly an environment for eating the rich.
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IMO, the flow of information being so much greater today renders many of the lessons of past attempts obsolete.
 
birdman said:
What are the other options? Engage in direct combat with Russia? Let Russia get away with invading another country?

I suspect the hope here is that Putin gives up in a couple days and we reinstall them in Swift and things go back to the way they were a few months ago. So hopefully it’s really only a threat of economic collapse but that Putin ceases hostilities before any permanent damage is done to the Russian people.

I’ll also say, there is a lot of sympathy for the poor innocent Russian people, but there are ~400,000 innocent Ukrainian refugees in Poland and Moldova right now. There are no good solutions in war. Poor people die and some of the rich and powerful get richer and more powerful.
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When you ask if there are other options regarding halting the Russian invasion, I don’t know if there are other options to *force* Russia to stop. It’s possible that peace talks could work regarding Ukraine’s ties to NATO, I don’t know.

My point was to criticize the assumption of Russian revolution/regime change, and even challenge the mindset that Russian regime change is a worthy goal. It very well could make things worse. If we as Americans are going to take the perspective that Russia’s expansion should be stopped at all cost, then it’s damn well relevant to discuss the potential costs.
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
You aren’t the thread police Ph, I have a right to respond to what you post - I don’t need to create new foreign policy from whole cloth while you all just repeat the same shit. “We all already know that” isn’t the most interesting content either, especially considering you aren’t posting as such. Honestly man, fuck you. I put a lot more thought and effort into my post than 75% of the low effort posts on this thread. There’s room in the conversation for more than just no commentary tweet posts.
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This is rich. No shit you have a right to respond. But your responses are thread policing followed up with holier than thou crap like in bold. I have a right to call you out on it.
 
DeacMan said:
The idea the Russians will eat the rich is naive. They tried that in 1917 and just created a new and even more brutal elite in the name of the "people". Then they tried it again and it ultimately led largely to a recycling of the USSR elite.
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With honest respect to your traveling experience (more than I've had in eastern Europe), this historical work strikes me as a bit naive to map the failures of a rebellion against and out of a feudal society/monarchical control onto any potential revolution in a post-industrial economy.

Just so I'm clear - what's the second revolution you're referring to there? The Civil War? Stalinization?
 
and please don't read that as an attack (just making it clear in light of other conversation on this thread)
 
PhDeac said:
This is rich. No shit you have a right to respond. But your responses are thread policing followed up with holier than thou crap like in bold. I have a right to call you out on it.
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“Holier than thou” Jesus fuck, sorry I took like 3 history classes and can navigate Google and Wikipedia. You feel lectured to just because someone wants to have a deeper conversation about a topic than just twitter regurgitation. You know instead of repeating over and over “everyone already knows that” why don’t you just chill out and let people speak for themselves. The conditions in Russia that led to Vladimir Putin taking power in Russia are certainly fucking relevant in a discussion about Putin invading the Ukraine against all conventional logic.
 
I don’t really care what the Russian people do in Russia, but if their cowardice to overthrow their dictators leads to occupation and death for people who choose democracy and peace, then it’s their fought too.

Either rise up and get rid of Putin, or feel the consequences of his actions. That’s how the world works.
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
“Holier than thou” Jesus fuck, sorry I took like 3 history classes and can navigate Google and Wikipedia. You feel lectured to just because someone wants to have a deeper conversation about a topic than just twitter regurgitation. You know instead of repeating over and over “everyone already knows that” why don’t you just chill out and let people speak for themselves. The conditions in Russia that led to Vladimir Putin taking power in Russia are certainly fucking relevant in a discussion about Putin invading the Ukraine against all conventional logic.
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You're shitting on everyone here and you seem completely oblivious about what you're doing. You can't even help doing it while defending yourself.

Participate in the discussion with everyone else instead of acting like you're above it. Believe it or not, none of us are experts on this. We're just a group of reasonably educated people trying to learn more by discussing these issues with each other in what should be a friendly manner.
 
If you're still wondering why jhmd and Junebug aren't stopping by.

 
 
NYT reporting that Belarus is joining Russia in invading Ukraine.
 
PhDeac said:
You're shitting on everyone here…

…Participate in the discussion with everyone else instead of acting like you're above it.

…what should be a friendly manner.
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Goddamn you always do this shit, whenever I express an opinion that goes against the grain on this board you get into a fight with me. I’m talking about fucking perestroika and you are conceited enough to take it as a personal insult. You know what isn’t friendly? You henpecking me all the goddamn time. You posted about Russia, I responded to you about Russia, stop making it personal.
 
I didn't take any of what you posted as a personal insult. You're insulting all of us. You should read your own posts mocking us.
 
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