• Welcome to OGBoards 10.0, keep in mind that we will be making LOTS of changes to smooth out the experience here and make it as close as possible functionally to the old software, but feel free to drop suggestions or requests in the Tech Support subforum!

Wake Forest, Trying Desperately to Regress to the Mean

UNC shooting 31% is a big part of what kept it from being a 40 point game, not our tempo.
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
Wake had no shot of winning the game down 15 with 6 minutes left against UNC, none at all. It's not giving up to do the same thing you had been doing all game which had kept it from being a 40 point game.
Click to expand...


I guess you think we should have just walked off the court once Carolina got up big? Let me clue you in to our uber-successful gameplan. When you get down 20, it means your gameplan failed. This whole ACC season isn't a contest to see who can hold Carolina below their scoring average. No one gives a fuck about that except for puss Bzz apologists. You play to win the game, you press, and trap, try to get turnovers, you foul John Henson, you try to draw shooting fouls in the lane, and hit transition threes. You do everything except run the clock down, and not shoot. Please don't ever become a basketball coach. Or any kind of coach.
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
Wake had no shot of winning the game down 15 with 6 minutes left against UNC, none at all. It's not giving up to do the same thing you had been doing all game which had kept it from being a 40 point game.
Click to expand...

Moral victory.

:rulz:
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
I guess you think we should have just walked off the court once Carolina got up big?

No I said what I thought we should have done when UNC got up big which was run our normal offense against a good defense for practice which helps us moving forward

Let me clue you in to our uber-successful gameplan. When you get down 20, it means your gameplan failed.

We were supposed to lose by 19 on KenPom, our gameplan did a good job of mitigating a lot of their success from the outside (along with a ton of their missed shots) and I thought that the gameplan was actually pretty decent given the glaring talent gap between the two teams, particularly inside

This whole ACC season isn't a contest to see who can hold Carolina below their scoring average. No one gives a fuck about that except for puss Bzz apologists.

I'm not a Bzz apologist at all, you can ask anyone about that

You play to win the game, you press, and trap

We tried to press and trap for a bit and when we did they got down the lane quickly because we're terrible at collapsing and stopping ball. UNC was too athletic for us to trap with any success

you try to get turnovers, you foul John Henson,

We didn't exactly have a ton of fouls to give and we did try to get turnovers, how would you propose we do that when we have roughly two good defensive players?

you try to draw shooting fouls in the lane, and hit transition threes.

Its hard to get transition buckets when the other team doesn't turn the ball over and you can't force turnovers. And we tried to get down the lane with TC and CJ and they couldn't get past the length and athleticism of UNC

You do everything except run the clock down, and not shoot.

We ran the same gameplan that had us in the game
Please don't ever become a basketball coach. Or any kind of coach.

This doesn't appear to have anything other than your misplaced hatred of [Redacted] being taken out on me
Click to expand...

Responded
 
I said what I thought we should have done when UNC got up big which was run our normal offense against a good defense for practice which helps us moving forward

Our normal offense had 38 points with 5 minutes to go. We don't need more practice scoring 60 points a game, we need a WIN, we need momentum.

We were supposed to lose by 19 on KenPom, our gameplan did a good job of mitigating a lot of their success from the outside (along with a ton of their missed shots) and I thought that the gameplan was actually pretty decent given the glaring talent gap between the two teams, particularly inside

WGAF what Kenpom said, he wasn't on the court. You play to win the game, not to cover the spread. Fuck your moral victory.

I'm not a Bzz apologist at all, you can ask anyone about that
Then stop patting Bzz on the back for a gameplan that got us blown out at home. No one gives a shit that Carolina only scored 68.


We tried to press and trap for a bit and when we did they got down the lane quickly because we're terrible at collapsing and stopping ball. UNC was too athletic for us to trap with any success.

They got down the lane when we turned it over, like assholes. Had nothing to do with us trapping.

We didn't exactly have a ton of fouls to give and we did try to get turnovers, how would you propose we do that when we have roughly two good defensive players?

None of our players fouled out, not even Nikita. We had plenty of fouls to give. You seemed really impressed with our defense, now we don't have any good defenders?


Its hard to get transition buckets when the other team doesn't turn the ball over and you can't force turnovers. And we tried to get down the lane with TC and CJ and they couldn't get past the length and athleticism of UNC

Where was our press when Stillman White was in, when did we trap McAdoo or Bullock or Henson? Good point about TC and CJ.


We ran the same gameplan that had us in the game
We weren't in the game down 20. This moral victory you are so excited about doesn't exist.


This doesn't appear to have anything other than your misplaced hatred of [Redacted] being taken out on me
Stop encouraging our coach and team to give up.
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
Our normal offense had 38 points with 5 minutes to go. We don't need more practice scoring 60 points a game, we need a WIN, we need momentum.

Give me an offense that the 222nd best offense could have run with our set of players that would have yielded a considerable amount of points against the 10th best defense in the country? It doesn't exist. We can't get out in transition because we don't know how to run the most basic fastbreaks. Tony keeps the ball on 9 of 10 two on one breakaways. Also how are we supposed to get out in transition? We don't force turnovers, we get outrebounded, and we're not very good on defense. To get out in transition you have to get fast outlet passes, force TO's, or at least get stops.

WGAF what Kenpom said, he wasn't on the court. You play to win the game, not to cover the spread. Fuck your moral victory.

I think it was a pretty good indicator of how the typical Wake-UNC game would play out and it was pretty accurate beyond both teams shooting 30%

Then stop patting Bzz on the back for a gameplan that got us blown out at home. No one gives a shit that Carolina only scored 68.

There are plenty of things to bitch at Bzz about but I don't know how only losing by 15 at home to a team who is better at every single position on the court than we are and is top 10 in the nation is one of them


They got down the lane when we turned it over, like assholes. Had nothing to do with us trapping.

We tried to press and trap from the 1-2-2 full court zone like three times and each time Barnes or Marshall dribbled straight through it to get an easy bucket, or an easy dish to Henson or Zeller. I think one time it happened Zeller missed a layup. Tell me how we could be expected to successfully trap UNC.

None of our players fouled out, not even Nikita. We had plenty of fouls to give. You seemed really impressed with our defense, now we don't have any good defenders?

Nikita had 3 fouls in like 10 minutes in the first half and Carson was in foul trouble the whole game. We run an 8 man rotation with four inside (with Green averaging like 7 minutes a game as one of the bigs) and two of our bigs had five fouls in the first half. How does this not constitute foul trouble? Also I didn't say I was impressed with our defense, I said I thought that we did a good job of mitigating the talent gap which was aided by them missing a ton of open shots.

Its hard to get transition buckets when the other team doesn't turn the ball over and you can't force turnovers. And we tried to get down the lane with TC and CJ and they couldn't get past the length and athleticism of UNC

Where was our press when Stillman White was in, when did we trap McAdoo or Bullock or Henson? Good point about TC and CJ.

White played three minutes total, 2 and a half minutes of which were in the final 2 and a half minutes of the game. The other was for one possession where we forced a quick missed shot. And like I said we trapped a handful of times and it was broken everytime, that's why at no point did we really attempt to trap anymore.

We weren't in the game down 20. This moral victory you are so excited about doesn't exist.

We entered the game with an 11-10 record against a team that was 18-3 entering the night as well as 5-1 in the conference with every win coming by double digits. With about 13 minutes to go in the game we were down 40-34 and had a chance to make it a one possession game, how is this not "in the game" and evidence that slowing the game down was probably the right call. We all acknowledge that UNC missed a ton of shots and giving them the chance to shoot more shots (which they probably would have increased their shooting percentage on) while also forcing us to make more shots to keep up (something we can't do since we can't get even simple baskets) was probably part of the reason we were only down 40-34 at that point.

Stop encouraging our coach and team to give up.

We didn't give up, we did the same thing we had done all game.
Click to expand...

2 characters
 
Since your opinion seems pretty unflappable, please explain to me how purposefully doing something, (continuing our "gameplan") which is destined for failure, isn't "giving up"? If it got us down 22, it wasn't going to win us the game. I'm baffled that you don't recognize this. It's a simple concept. We got down 22 playing small ball. IT DIDN'T WORK. Continuing to run the clock down was the same as waving a white flag.
 
So you would propose we shoot more threes (which we ended up going 2-18 from), get out in transition more (from some fantasy world where we can create turnovers and actually get into transition), and run traps and presses that UNC dribbled through and passed over the top of with ease simply because being down by 20 and forking up 3's and then losing by 50 doesn't matter because a loss is a loss?

I mean if that's your opinion it's fine, but I don't see how we could do anything period that was going to work. We struggle to get a basket every single time down the court and were shooting the ball horribly last night. Talk to me about an offense you would have run if you were [Redacted] when we were down by 15 with 6 minutes left
 
If Carolina even shoots 40% in this game (i.e. hits the easy shots they missed), they win by at least 29 (28/71 instead of 21/71).

Not to mention, Barnes was on the bench for much of the first half.

We weren't even close in this one offensively. And on defense, they gave us every opportunity in the world.

This loss is almost more painful than the NCSU one because we only had to play the game a normal, actual, real ACC team plays to steal this one at HOME against the Tar Heels.
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
I mean if that's your opinion it's fine, but I don't see how we could do anything period that was going to work. We struggle to get a basket every single time down the court and were shooting the ball horribly last night. Talk to me about an offense you would have run if you were [Redacted] when we were down by 15 with 6 minutes left
Click to expand...

We lost to NC State by 40, why would I mind losing to UNC by 30 if it's because we tried to shoot ourselves back into the game? Teams do that all the time. How many 5 point deficits have turned into 10+ point losses because of fouling to save time on the clock. You play to win the game, not to save face and cover the spread.

CJ can shoot the three, Chase can shoot, hell, Nikita can shoot. If your going to lose, you go down swinging. I don't claim to be more qualified than Bzz, but I recognize when a coach and a team gives up, and that's exactly what we did.
 
Yeah but the reason we shot such a low percentage was in large part because their defense is so good. We were unable to get into a rhythm because we couldn't get down the lane, and when we did and kicked it Chase and CJ were missing open threes. That's frustrating, but let's say CJ and Chase go 5-10 from outside instead of 1-10. A lot of the open looks were because there were good sets being run from the offense. I'm not a fan of the offense, but last night the issue was knocking down open shots, the inability to do much else against a lengthy, aggressive, and disciplined UNC defense, and continuing to make dumb mistakes to turn the ball over.
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
CJ can shoot the three, Chase can shoot, hell, Nikita can shoot. If your going to lose, you go down swinging. I don't claim to be more qualified than Bzz, but I recognize when a coach and a team gives up, and that's exactly what we did.
Click to expand...

We obviously just disagree. CJ and Chase had open shots and missed them all night. They had open looks BECAUSE OF the offense which was working the ball around. We tried to get these same open looks when the game was winding down and they were there for the most part, we just continued to miss them.

How do you propose we shoot the three? What plays are you gonna run which we didn't run (which gave our guys open shots to start with)? Are you just giving Chase the ball and telling him to spot up and shoot threes five seconds into the shot clock? He was already getting open looks, they weren't going in.
 
At what point are going to stop making excuses and justifying why its ok to lose by double digits at home?

Next year all we will hear about is our youth...
 
buckets said:
At what point are going to stop making excuses and justifying why its ok to lose by double digits at home?

Next year all we will hear about is our youth...
Click to expand...

I didn't justify it after the State or FSU games, I was openly critical and said the offense was the problem along with Bzz not getting it. Losing at home to a top 10 team by 15 when we were actually in the game for roughly 75% of it is not the time to be overly critical IMO.

You gotta pick your battles and this just isn't one of them. If we lose at home to BC by double digits then I'll be upset. How is this even making excuses anyway? I asked Chin what he would have done with 6 minutes left down 15 and he said "shoot threes with CJ and Chase" well that's exactly what we did and they missed their shots.
 
Sometimes you just have to nut up and start jacking up shots. CJ passed up about 20 shots in the last 5 minutes last night, only to pass off to a well defended TC or Travis. Why?
 
Marquee Moon said:
http://www.carolinamarch.com/2012/1/31/2762463/wake-forest-trying-desperately-to-regress-to-the-mean

It may be a little early, but I can't shake the feeling that Jeff [Redacted] is the worst ACC coaching hire of the 2000's. Wake gave up on Dino Gaudio pretty early, firing him after a 20-11 season from a team that was bounced in the first weekend of the NCAA Tournament. Almost all of the starters left with Gaudio, so it wasn't too much of a surprise that the Demon Deacons struggled last season, but a 1-15 conference record and 8-24 mark overall was shockingly bad. This was the worst team in a major conference last season. Can [Redacted] really rebuild it?
Click to expand...

We also shoved out the door Dave odom who won 2 ACC titles and had us in good stead with Darius Songalia, Josh Howard, Craig Dawson and a recruiting class of Taron Downey, Vytas Danileus & Jamal Levy.

In fact we shoved out the door a 3 time ACC champion baseball coach back around 2000 and see where that has gotten us.
 
The problem with our tempo a lot of the time is we don't even get a shot because Chase dribbles it off his foot or Tony drives into three people, throws it off the bottom of the hoop or steps out of bounds. Those empty possessions are killers, especially when you're working so hard to score and the other team gets out in transition.

The question, I suppose, is whether or not a different offense would maximize our personnel, rather than [Redacted] hoping to fit our square pegs into his round-holed machine. I am less than encouraged by his inability to adapt to his own players, rather than expecting them to adapt to him and his idea of how the offense should run. Even Coach K changes his style to fit his team.
 
We really should be running the offense that maximizes players that can't dribble and drive into crowds.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top