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Wake Ken Pom Thread: 2014-15 Preaseason = 104, Currently = 125 Season Over

As we've discussed, KP's preseason rankings are next to meaningless (and they certainly do not work in a young teams favor). Diagnosing improvement based on ranks settling in once data exists is rather absurd.

Agreed but comparing differences in improvement over a span of games in roughly the same portion of the year is somewhat removed from the initial preseason ranks. Some of the improvement is slightly attributable to the fact that KenPom didn't have any of our freshmen making meaningful contribution (which of course was impossible given the number of freshmen on the team) but like I said a few posts above anyone who doesn't see that this team is playing better over the past five games either isn't watching or doesn't want to see improvement. This is reflected in the quality on the court and the stats off it.
 
Let's see how we do in our next 5 before sucking each others dicks
 
Count me as one who does not expect an imminent big dip. I don't think we'll re-enter the [Redacted] zone this year. I wrote a long (poorly articulated) post on this a little while ago, but I do not expect this year to follow the same KenPom pattern as the past two years. Time will tell I guess.
link?
 
There are approximately 1.5 games of preseason data included in our ranking at this point. KP starts it at 5 games worth preseason and takes a tiny bit away each day until the last week of January so that the impact of games played on a given day is always stronger than the impact of removing that sliver of preseason ranking each day. Preseason rankings thus make up about 12% (and declining) of our overall rating.
 
My only point is we've been better recently and the stats back that up.

You'll have to excuse me if i'm not impressed by an improvement from rock bottom to simply shitty. We've been better in the last 4 wins, because they're 4 wins, it's funny how that works, but it's not a big fucking deal. It's 4 meaningless wins, not some huge revelation, there is no reason to believe that we have turned some hypothetical corner because of a couple wins over shitty teams who ken pom overrated in the preseason. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I hate this team, that's actually a pretty immature way of thinking. Your glass is half full, mine is half empty.

You may see some matrix screen of advanced metrics when you're watching Wake basketball
matrix.jpg


but I still see shitty basketball. People are actually able to distinguish between good and bad basketball without Mr. Pomeroy's help.
 
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Link.

A second attempt to explain, really not happy with how I worded the first one:

A large part of KenPom's preseason model is simply a weighted average of the past 3 years (it might just be 2 years. He switched at some point, don't remember which way. Either way, t-3 is relatively unimportant). This may seem overly simplistic, but it works in most cases. Good teams tend to stay good. Bad teams tend to stay bad. Take a team like Duke, for instance. Even when they lose a good chunk of their minutes, everyone still assumes they will be good the next year. Their 'replacement level' players tend to be very good. Lose Dawkins? --> plug in Sulaimon. No problem.

So, in [Redacted] year 1, KP's preseason system projected Wake to rank 107. On the one hand, we lost nearly our entire team (Ish, Chas, Rouq, LD, Weav), which generally results in a major drop. On the other hand, our final rank the previous three years was 68-25-58. So, essentially, the system assumed that our young players had similar talent to our departing players, and it would just be a slight step back because we were so young. Obviously, as we all know, TC-JTT-Trav-Tabb-Carson was not an adequate replacement group for the aforementioned 5. As a result, we sucked hard. Looking at VT's graph for year 1, it looks like we declined all year, until about game 20. As someone who watched way more games than I probably should have that year, I don't feel like this paints an accurate picture. In my opinion, we were absurdly terrible all year- but it was fairly consistent. Remember, the double-digit home loss to Stetson was game #1. Aside from the Iowa game, there was no point in that season where we played like a top 150 team, but we were ranked in the KP top 150 for the first 10 games. Essentially, KP expected us to be around 110 nationally, even though that quickly proved to be nowhere near accurate. So, from the computer's perspective, it seemed like we were continuously under-performing. By about game 20, the preseason model was eliminated from the ratings, and at that point, as the graph illustrates, our rating stabilized. In short, I believe that our KP rank dropped dramatically over those first 20 games because it took time for the computer to accurately assess how bad we were, not because we continuously got worse.

[Redacted] year 2 was a somewhat similar story. The system had a better understanding of how bad we were (preseason ~150), but still underestimated our suckiness. As a result, it looks like we declined throughout the year, until about game 20. I don't really believe this is true. If anything, I thought we were getting better during most of the non-con last year, and then actually got worse during conference play.

Now, in [Redacted] year 3, I think its fairly likely the system over-corrected. From the computer's PoV...last two seasons ranks of 251 and 210, combined with losing a huge chunk of minutes off last year's team (Nikita, Fields, Carson, TC, Ty), spelled major trouble. At this point, based on our last couple seasons, the computer assumed our replacement players (the self-proclaimed "Sensational Seven") would, by and large, suck pretty badly. As a result, our preseason rank was in the low 200s. While the jury is still out on whether or not our 2012 recruiting class is good enough to lead us to the top half of the ACC, I think we can all agree that it has pieces you would not expect a sub-200 program to bring in. (By the way, Pos Rep is available for anyone that convinces me that they read this whole post.) Think about the 2010 and 2011 recruiting classes. 7 of the 8 players in those classes were either awful, didn't even get meaningful minutes, or transferred (or some combination of those). That is not a tough bar to surpass. I think we all knew that the 2012 class would beat that threshold, but the computer is naive (and it has to be. Pomeroy cannot feasibly, objectively, add a human touch to all 347 teams. Most teams coming off back-to-back years ranking in the 200s don't bring in a handful of top 125 recruits. The system works decently well for most teams; Wake has been a major exception the past few years).

Anyway, long story short, is it possible our KP ranking drops significantly over the next few weeks? Sure. Of course its possible. I just don't think its very likely. If it happens though, it would not be following the same pattern as the previous two years (I mean, on the surface, it would look similar, but in my opinion, its completely different). Again, those two years, our ranking dropped after almost every single game because it took time for the computer to 'catch up' to how bad we were, not because we got worse each game. That should not be an issue this year. If we did drop, it would be because we actually began playing worse. Right now, the computer knows how bad we are; if anything, I would argue we were significantly underrated in the preseason, and so the computer actually thinks we're worse than we are. As a result, I would be very surprised if our ranking dropped significantly in the near future.

(exhale)
 
I think it depends on how you define that corner. I think we're very much safe from falling back towards the 200 threshold. I'm also beginning to believe we will finish slightly better than 150. That's 'turning a corner' compared to the last two years, but does absolutely nothing for the program's overall long-term goals. If we turn it on the rest of the year and end up top 100, even barely missing the NIT (VERY doubtful, but theoretically possible), that would at least be a good sign in terms of being competitive in the future. It's a shame that getting to that range (somewhere slightly worst than where we were in 05-06 and 06-07) signifies significant improvement, but that's where we are.
 
Stonz,

Great post. I agree with you entirely. I'd even add that due to our 200+ preseason ranking constituting over 10% at present, we've actually played better than our 156 ranking indicates, by at least a little bit (8-10 spots). The last 7 games we've also played much better than we did through Nebraska. We'll still have a clunker or two as inexperienced teams do, but I'd still be surprised if we fell anywhere near #200.
 
You'll have to excuse me if i'm not impressed by an improvement from rock bottom to simply shitty. We've been better in the last 4 wins, because they're 4 wins, it's funny how that works, but it's not a big fucking deal. It's 4 meaningless wins, not some huge revelation, there is no reason to believe that we have turned some hypothetical corner because of a couple wins over shitty teams who ken pom overrated in the preseason. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I hate this team, that's actually a pretty immature way of thinking. Your glass is half full, mine is half empty.

but I still see shitty basketball. People are actually able to distinguish between good and bad basketball without Mr. Pomeroy's help.

I never said that we weren't playing bad basketball all I said was that we're improving while you stated that we "played better against Uconn from day 1 than we did beating a shitty Xavier team two weeks ago." This really isn't true since we held Xavier to an 85.4 offensive rating and 59 points while allowing Uconn a 111 rating to go with 77 points. We gave up 18 more points to Xavier than Uconn in a game that had identical possession totals. You then somehow garnered that I was being "optimistic" by making this statement. In what way is it possibly debatable that Wake has improved since the beginning of the season? I don't see how that's debatable. We got blown at home by a terrible Nebraska team two and a half weeks into the season after already haven given up 94 points to Iona and limping past an injury-riddled Mercer team. In the past five games we've won three games by double digits, led a Big East team at halftime and had a double digit lead over them in the second half, and then lost to the number 1 team in the country by 18 points on the road.

This is clear improvement. This is not a statement of optimism, this is a statement of fact: Wake Forest has improved since the beginning of the year. There's just no way around that. You can wallow in your misery all you want about whatever this means to you and you can continue to call me optimistic for not bashing [Redacted] and this team at every turn but don't put words into my mouth by making it sound like I said we weren't still bad. I never said that. This team is still not good. You shifted the paradigm from "improvement" to "we still suck". I agree with the latter. Everyone should agree with it. We still suck, but we're getting better. It's a straw man to bring that up in opposition to the discussion we were having about the team improving though.

You can say that the improvements don't matter because we still suck. You can say that the improvements are probably due to freshmen learning the system. I agree with this. You cannot however realistically tell me, or anyone who has watched Wake play from the beginning of the year until now, that we have not improved. That's ridiculous and you know it.
 
I do agree with MDMH that it doesn't really mean much overall if the Deacs finish 130th instead of 200th. It's just not very likely and people are thinking that the past two years will be a model for this year, which, as Stonz explained it is not very reliable.

Now, I do think tonight we will lose by more than 7 and probably score under 56 points so it's likely we drop 8-10 spots tonight if we lose something like 63-48. In the long run (this season) I think we will continue to improve in KP's rankings and under the "eye test".
 
I don't think it's a fact that we've played a game better than we did against UConn, considering the competition. That game fucked up any kind of improvement curve that could be forecast for this season.
 
I don't think it's a fact that we've played a game better than we did against UConn, considering the competition. That game fucked up any kind of improvement curve that could be forecast for this season.

KenPom adjusts for SOS and competition. They are the best team that we have played (other than Duke), ranked at 55th in KP. Richmond and Seton Hall are 82 and 84th respectively, while Xavier is now 109th.

It was our 5th best game offensively and 4th worst defensively.

Our wins and losses are more dependent on our effort defensively so far. The only game that we have won with an over 96 efficiency of the other team was Mercer (103).

Iona wasour worst game of the year and Furman was by far our best game of the year according to KP's adjustments.
 
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KenPom adjusts for SOS and competition. They are the best team that we have played (other than Duke), ranked at 55th in KP. Richmond and Seton Hall are 82 and 84th respectively, while Xavier is now 109th.

We're going round and round here. I get that there's analytic theory behind your all's opinion, but I saw both games and i'm sticking by my opinion that we played better in our 7 point neutral site loss to a top 25 team, then we did in a 7 point home win over a team that lost to Pacific and Wofford. X is not the same team right now that beat Butler.
 
In the long run (this season) I think we will continue to improve in KP's rankings and under the "eye test".

enough so that you're out of the buzzout camp?

what about at the end of the year? (assuming your prediction comes true)... ballpark, what end-of-year ranking would it take to have seen 'significant enough progress' to want to see Bz back next season?
 
We're up to #141
Holy shit we cracked #150
Bz is somewhere wearing nothing but an ugly tie composing a harmonica song about it now
 
We are playing a lot better, and probably because we are playing a lot harder. We were playing at AAU intensity level most games before Christmas, especially on defense and the boards. That doesn't cut in D-1. Apparently the light has gone on and we've picked it up significantly. We need to dismantle BC at home now.
 
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