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Wake Law School

Is there no limit to what Wellman can screw up?
 
Guy Carswell would be rolling over in his grave.
 
Ouch. Hatch is just sitting back collecting checks these days.
 
Have to think that 52.2% employed at graduation number has something to do with it. Brutal
 
MysteryMen said:
Have to think that 52.2% employed at graduation number has something to do with it. Brutal
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Isn't that number inflated? Doesn't that take into account fellowships that are sponsored and placed by the school and also temporary clerkships? I'm curious to see the figure of graduates who are gainfully employed.
 
Knight said:
I'm glad that a thread was made about this. I saw the numbers yesterday and still haven't picked my jaw up off the floor.

Things for our graduates are still really bad. I came out in 2011, and I know one of my classmates who still doesn't have a job. I know that's partly on him, but he's part of my dipstick for how things are going.

Our bar passage rates have been abysmal lately - I know they are a component (albeit a small one) of the US News Rankings.

Dean Morant leaving also probably doesn't help things. If nothing else, just the transition doesn't favor the perception.

Finally, I think we can probably expect to see a general downward trend over the next 5 years or so. One of our biggest (if not the biggest) recruiting asset that we had over the last 40-ish years was Melanie Nutt. That woman moved heaven and earth to get amazing students to come to Wake Forest. She retired from the school about 4 years ago, and her replacement does not have the same skillset. My understanding is that he is much more data driven.
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Thanks a lot, KenPom.
 
tsywake said:
Isn't that number inflated? Doesn't that take into account fellowships that are sponsored and placed by the school and also temporary clerkships? I'm curious to see the figure of graduates who are gainfully employed.
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Can't speak to what is in that number, but my understanding is that this year's rankings significantly prioritized crediting actual legal jobs over school sponsored ones. Perhaps this is one of the reasons that Wake Forest fell so much
 
Knight said:
I'm glad that a thread was made about this. I saw the numbers yesterday and still haven't picked my jaw up off the floor.

Things for our graduates are still really bad. I came out in 2011, and I know one of my classmates who still doesn't have a job. I know that's partly on him, but he's part of my dipstick for how things are going.

Our bar passage rates have been abysmal lately - I know they are a component (albeit a small one) of the US News Rankings.

Dean Morant leaving also probably doesn't help things. If nothing else, just the transition doesn't favor the perception.

Finally, I think we can probably expect to see a general downward trend over the next 5 years or so. One of our biggest (if not the biggest) recruiting asset that we had over the last 40-ish years was Melanie Nutt. That woman moved heaven and earth to get amazing students to come to Wake Forest. She retired from the school about 4 years ago, and her replacement does not have the same skillset. My understanding is that he is much more data driven.
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I still have a solid chunk from my class (2014) that are unemployed. I can understand not getting hired if you were towards the bottom of the class but I have at least one friend who was in the top 15% and can't find an associate gig/anything other than contract work to save his life.

To give you an idea of how bad things are out there: two jobs in the public defenders office opened up a few months back which paid around 40k a year. There were 77 applicants for those positions. Mind-boggling.
 
StopMakingSense said:
I still have a solid chunk from my class (2014) that are unemployed. I can understand not getting hired if you were towards the bottom of the class but I have at least one friend who was in the top 15% and can't find an associate gig/anything other than contract work to save his life.

To give you an idea of how bad things are out there: two jobs in the public defenders office opened up a few months back which paid around 40k a year. There were 77 applicants for those positions. Mind-boggling.
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Honestly, I'm not really surprised. From doing OCI at Wake for years, the quality of student has really seemed to drop over the past few years. From this past fall, I only had two people who I would even consider for a summer clerkship, let alone a full time job. The entire day was basically a waste of time. Talking with some of the other attorneys during breaks, they were saying the same thing.
At the other end of the spectrum, the typical Carolina student seems to have gotten much stronger. I think the smarter kids now recognize the value of the reduced debt load, so are steering towards the lower cost option. Wake and its tuition are left with the leftovers.
 
MysteryMen said:
Can't speak to what is in that number, but my understanding is that this year's rankings significantly prioritized crediting actual legal jobs over school sponsored ones. Perhaps this is one of the reasons that Wake Forest fell so much
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I always felt that counting those is one increment too close to a pyramid scheme for my comfort level.
 
Knight said:
I genuinely believe that this is a symptom of Melanie Nutt leaving the program. When that position transitioned, I had some pretty serious reservations for the new hire. I think we're starting to see the fruit that this tree will bear.
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You serious Clark?
 
Rankings themselves are kinda scams. Not saying this fall in rankings doesn't matter or that it's not indicative of bad things. I don't know enough about Wake law to say one way or another.

But there are so many flaws to ranking systems. Like how USNWR and others rely on schools themselves to self-report data. Or how it creates a perverse incentive scheme for schools to reject "overqualified applicants" to increase their (oft weighted) rejection rate. It doesn't affect the # of matriculants, but it waters down the quality of student at the school artificially under the premise that overqualified students will be accepted elsewhere. So while the ranking artificially rises, the quality of student goes down. And there's the fact that while Early Decision is the right decision for many students, it's a bad idea for most, especially those who need financial aid or those who could benefit from choice. But it's great for schools looking to boost their ranking, since it means near 100% of accepted ED students will enroll which allows them to reject more regular decision students (often stronger applicants who want a wider pool).

Schools pay to be included on these rankings - they're akin to the "Who's who at 40?" lists that idiots pay to be included in. Except everybody does it, especially in this market, because they're beholden to the stupid rankings that otherwise distinguish similar schools or similar prices or otherwise undistinguishable schools.

/my annual rant on rankings
 
I applied and was accepted at Wake in 06 but they probably were the least impressive with convincing me to go there. I don't remember any sort of admitted student day and I wasn't offered any scholarship money like at some of the other schools that were ranked higher. They were one of my top choices but after that I didn't really consider them.
 
Knight said:
I genuinely believe that this is a symptom of Melanie Nutt leaving the program. When that position transitioned, I had some pretty serious reservations for the new hire. I think we're starting to see the fruit that this tree will bear.
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FWIW class of '14 was Nutt's last class (and she gave everyone scholarships resulting in a huge class) and the employment numbers referenced above are from '13 grads.

Any issues from the new admissions guy are likely only to come.
 
2&2 Slider To Leyritz said:
Honestly, I'm not really surprised. From doing OCI at Wake for years, the quality of student has really seemed to drop over the past few years. From this past fall, I only had two people who I would even consider for a summer clerkship, let alone a full time job. The entire day was basically a waste of time. Talking with some of the other attorneys during breaks, they were saying the same thing.
At the other end of the spectrum, the typical Carolina student seems to have gotten much stronger. I think the smarter kids now recognize the value of the reduced debt load, so are steering towards the lower cost option. Wake and its tuition are left with the leftovers.
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I see your point and I agree but Wake in the past few years have been throwing around scholarship money... a number of my classmates and friends who finished near the top of the class went for much less than Carolina tuition. They turned down Carolina to come to Wake so I don't think the talent pool at the top of the class has been diluted too much. But in light of people not going to law school in the last couple years schools near the top have to accept more students they wouldn't normally accept and this trickles all the way down the ladder. Wake has lowered its LSAT and GPA ranges to be able to have enough incoming students just like everyone else has.
 
Just got this email:

Dear MysteryMen,
Today U.S. News and World Report released the annual ranking of law schools and other graduate programs. We want to assure you that the quality of our program remains strong. Historically rankings bounce around a bit, and we know from experience that this decline is temporary.

As you consider your options for law school you should keep things in perspective. There is a time lag involved in the U.S. News ranking system, and we have already taken strategic measures to address areas that negatively impacted the statistics for the Class of 2013, on which the newest ranking is based. We believe that the unexpected drop in bar passage in 2013 explains our lower employment rate at nine months following graduation, the area in which we most differed from our peer institutions.

In the time since the Class of 2013 graduated, we have implemented courses aimed specifically at helping students prepare for the bar exam as a part of their regular coursework and increased employment-specific curricular and extracurricular programs. We take bar passage and employment very seriously and want to assure you that we remain vigilant in these areas whatever our ranking.

Keep in mind that U.S. News is only one measure of our law school. Our reputation in the legal community and higher education is unquestionable. Generations of Wake Forest Law alumni will attest to the value of their law school experience in shaping successful careers and lives. We are confident that as a student at Wake Forest Law, you'll receive the highest quality legal education available.

If you have questions, please don't hesitate to contact me directly.
Warm regards,
R. Jay Shively
Dean for Admissions & Financial Aid
 
MysteryMen said:
Just got this email:

Dear MysteryMen,
Today U.S. News and World Report released the annual ranking of law schools and other graduate programs. We want to assure you that the quality of our program remains strong. Historically rankings bounce around a bit, and we know from experience that this decline is temporary.

As you consider your options for law school you should keep things in perspective. There is a time lag involved in the U.S. News ranking system, and we have already taken strategic measures to address areas that negatively impacted the statistics for the Class of 2013, on which the newest ranking is based. We believe that the unexpected drop in bar passage in 2013 explains our lower employment rate at nine months following graduation, the area in which we most differed from our peer institutions.

In the time since the Class of 2013 graduated, we have implemented courses aimed specifically at helping students prepare for the bar exam as a part of their regular coursework and increased employment-specific curricular and extracurricular programs. We take bar passage and employment very seriously and want to assure you that we remain vigilant in these areas whatever our ranking.

Keep in mind that U.S. News is only one measure of our law school. Our reputation in the legal community and higher education is unquestionable. Generations of Wake Forest Law alumni will attest to the value of their law school experience in shaping successful careers and lives. We are confident that as a student at Wake Forest Law, you'll receive the highest quality legal education available.

If you have questions, please don't hesitate to contact me directly.
Warm regards,
R. Jay Shively
Dean for Admissions & Financial Aid
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:bowrofl: Right from the Wellman playbook!
 
blaming the class of 2013 is straight outta the [Redacted] playbook
 
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