What Could Have Been ...

[Ball State Deac]

The announced attendance at that game was 14100 so if the crowd was quiet it wasn't because there was nobody there. Wake fans in general sometimes have a wine-and-cheese complacency problem I don't know the size of the Arena would change that. I am fine with decreasing the capacity of the Joel and I think it would probably be a good decision but I don't really think it would have much of a material impact on our win loss record.

There were thousands of empty seats at that game, but it was not empty by current standards. It was a very disappointing crowd but also more accurate as to what the Joel looks like for the non-duke/unc games.

 

[AlphaDeac]

This. I remember my father drove me out to Smith Reynolds airport to "welcome" 'Lew'. High school teammate with then Deac Norwood Todmann from Power Memorial HS in NYC. I was excited because my Dad was excited. The plane came, no Lew. The several dozen folks there to welcome him left. A day or two later he announced for UCLA. Even the special bed they had made for him in Kitchen dorm was ready.

Bones McKinney was close with Red Auerbach who was advising Alcindor/Jabaar. That’s why many felt Wake could get him. But, for the record, one correction ... Norwood Todmann came out of Power Memorial after Lew, not before him, so Wake’s only connection was through Auerbach, not Todmann.

 

[inspectah]

Chris is correct - throughout the 90s and early 2000s the Joel was a great home venue for Wake. It can be again with the right coach, and with the team even moderately successful. We're never going to fill it to capacity for every game, but that's okay.

I think a lot of people who clamor for a smaller arena/OCA really don't understand the Joel's history or how/why it got built. It was a huge boon for Wake at the time. Some day in the future we'll have to have a new arena - fine, make that one smaller, and put it on campus if it fits. But there's nothing seriously wrong with the Joel and it's had nothing to do with Wake's recent struggles.

 

[SDDeac]

Chris is correct - throughout the 90s and early 2000s the Joel was a great home venue for Wake. It can be again with the right coach, and with the team even moderately successful. We're never going to fill it to capacity for every game, but that's okay.

I think a lot of people who clamor for a smaller arena/OCA really don't understand the Joel's history or how/why it got built. It was a huge boon for Wake at the time. Some day in the future we'll have to have a new arena - fine, make that one smaller, and put it on campus if it fits. But there's nothing seriously wrong with the Joel and it's had nothing to do with Wake's recent struggles.

I agree. All they need to do is update the exterior as planned. Make the concourse look a bit nicer. And lastly, hire a winning coach. That’s all you need to do to have the Joel being the best, most fun atmosphere in the country to host college basketball. Students don’t seem to be affected by the coliseum not being on campus. They get there. The people who are slacking off are the alums. After one win against Duke, the student section was pretty packed. After ONE big game. They will come. It’s the alumni, and the community that are going to make the difference. So it really doesn’t matter at all if it’s on, or off campus.

Also, we have a really nice hub for our athletic facilities. They are all in one spot. What the athetic department and university needs to do now, is update the Joel and recondition Deacon Boulevard. I have no clue what they’re doing with the land/buildings, because they own it. Last Resort is the only building in current use if I’m correct. They need to do something with that area, because it’s an eyesore. If anyone knows what the plans are there, please tell me.

 

[duncandonut]

Does this mean the monorail plans are back on?

 

[WFU03]

How has there not been a Skeen joke on this thread yet? I’m disappointed.

 

[Ball State Deac]

Chris is correct - throughout the 90s and early 2000s the Joel was a great home venue for Wake. It can be again with the right coach, and with the team even moderately successful. We're never going to fill it to capacity for every game, but that's okay.

I think a lot of people who clamor for a smaller arena/OCA really don't understand the Joel's history or how/why it got built. It was a huge boon for Wake at the time. Some day in the future we'll have to have a new arena - fine, make that one smaller, and put it on campus if it fits. But there's nothing seriously wrong with the Joel and it's had nothing to do with Wake's recent struggles.

It was an improvement over playing in Greensboro but it is way too big for a small private school. That shouldn’t even be up for debate.

 

[donaldross]

Chris is correct - throughout the 90s and early 2000s the Joel was a great home venue for Wake. It can be again with the right coach, and with the team even moderately successful. We're never going to fill it to capacity for every game, but that's okay.

I think a lot of people who clamor for a smaller arena/OCA really don't understand the Joel's history or how/why it got built. It was a huge boon for Wake at the time. Some day in the future we'll have to have a new arena - fine, make that one smaller, and put it on campus if it fits. But there's nothing seriously wrong with the Joel and it's had nothing to do with Wake's recent struggles.

This is just demonstrably wrong. Recruit after recruit has paraded through the place--especially in the 90s--and understandably chosen to play elsewhere.

 

[donaldross]

And why do we continue to argue about how poor the decision was in 1989 to cooperate with the city on the Joel? History has demonstrated what that meant.

But that's not the question. The question we are faced with is what do we do in 2020. 1989 has nothing to do with that.

 

[BlackjackMc]

DR, the answer to your question is simple. Provide Manning with his walking papers and hire a competent basketball coach to rebuild the basketball program. Everything else comes after that. If that is not accomplished the games could be played in the Annex without difficulty.

 

[inspectah]

I doubt there have been many recruits over the years that ruled out WF specifically because of the Joel. No doubt a few here and there cited it as one reason among others to play elsewhere, but "recruit after recruit"? Come on.

The choices in 1989 were to continue playing miles away in Greensboro or partner with the city on a shared arena. Is the Joel an ideal size for WF? No. But it was the best option WF had at the time.

If money grew on trees, I'd be all for tearing the place down tomorrow. But hell, we apparently can't even afford to buy out the worst coach in ACC history. We are about to wrap up a seven-year, $1B capital campaign on the academic side. Ten years ago we had a $10M donation that helped build the new business school, which at that time was the largest-ever donation by a private individual. You think we're coming up with $200 million to build a new OCA when the school already owns an arena that's more than serviceable? Barring something pretty unexpected, Wake's not going to be in the market for a new basketball arena for a good while to come.

The Joel has been fine in the past and will continue to be fine in the future. I agree we should probably explore a different model for our next home court when the day comes to replace it, but until then, let's focus on the far more important task of finding a halfway decent head coach.

 

[Deacland]

BlackjackMc is spot on. I’ve been in the Joel many times when it was “rockin”. Put a solid new coach in place, build an exciting, winning team, and it will rock again

 

[ChrisL68]

I doubt there have been many recruits over the years that ruled out WF specifically because of the Joel. No doubt a few here and there cited it as one reason among others to play elsewhere, but "recruit after recruit"? Come on.

The choices in 1989 were to continue playing miles away in Greensboro or partner with the city on a shared arena. Is the Joel an ideal size for WF? No. But it was the best option WF had at the time.

If money grew on trees, I'd be all for tearing the place down tomorrow. But hell, we apparently can't even afford to buy out the worst coach in ACC history. We are about to wrap up a seven-year, $1B capital campaign on the academic side. Ten years ago we had a $10M donation that helped build the new business school, which at that time was the largest-ever donation by a private individual. You think we're coming up with $200 million to build a new OCA when the school already owns an arena that's more than serviceable? Barring something pretty unexpected, Wake's not going to be in the market for a new basketball arena for a good while to come.

The Joel has been fine in the past and will continue to be fine in the future. I agree we should probably explore a different model for our next home court when the day comes to replace it, but until then, let's focus on the far more important task of finding a halfway decent head coach.

When that time comes we'll repurpose the Joel site. We don't have the space or parking on campus to put an Arena and it makes no sense to build one away from where you have current parking and right beside your football stadium in baseball stadium. It will probably be the same sort of renovation like Georgia Tech did with their Coliseum

 

[deacdiggler]

i'm just excited to hear DR's takes on this; unfortunately there was a sizeable car wreck on 40 this morning so it's going to be this afternoon before he can get back to this.

 

[Deaconblue]

It was an improvement over playing in Greensboro but it is way too big for a small private school. That shouldn’t even be up for debate.

Playing in Greensboro was a temporary situation caused by the construction of the Joel. For many years Wake played in the old Winston-Salem Coliseum aka the "Quonset Hut" which stood about where the Joel is now. It held fewer fans than the Joel. Around 8,000 from my foggy memory. Wake played home games there beginning shortly after the move of the campus to Winston-Salem.
1964 photo of what was.

https://www.digitalforsyth.org/photos/browse/structures-buildings-winston-salem-war-memorial-coliseum

Wake would move big selling "home" games to the Greensboro Coliseum to maximize revenue from ticket sales. Revenue from basketball ticket sales was the major source of funding for all Wake athletics. TV revenue was small back then.

Wake did not have the money to build a new facility by itself. And the old. 30+ year old facility needed to be replaced. Talk about turning off recruits. Hence the Wake/Winston-Salem partnership to build the Joel.

Wake could have continued playing in the old W-S Coliseum until it fell down. And continued to move "big seller" games to Greensboro.

That's another "what might have been." Duke, NC State and u*NC "home" games in Greensboro, complete with masses of fans in red or shades of blue.

Some on here only remember the two seasons (1987-1988 and 1988-1989) when Wake played all home games in Greensboro.

 

[PhDeac]

Now the Joel is the 30+ year old facility.

It is funny how 80s Deacs talk about going to Greensboro like it was a permanent home. And it seems like only the 60s and 70s Deacs talk about the old stadium.

 

[Deaconblue]

Now the Joel is the 30+ year old facility.

It is funny how 80s Deacs talk about going to Greensboro like it was a permanent home. And it seems like only the 60s and 70s Deacs talk about the old stadium.

All the fussing about Wake needing a smaller facility coupled with the discussion of current crowd size puts the size to fit about 8000. Right about the size of the old quonset hut. Just for perspective.

 

[morrison2951]

Seriously, I've never been in a more loud building than the night Coach Odom and the Deacs woodshedded Kansas by like 30 points! Had to have been 14,000+ strong in the Joel that night. My ears were ringing for a week!

And that's saying something as I've been in the PNC here in Raleigh during the Canes' Stanley Cup run.

If Currie makes the right decision this month and the new coach builds it, THEY WILL COME! :dancindeac:

 

[LilburnDeac]

Playing in Greensboro was a temporary situation caused by the construction of the Joel. For many years Wake played in the old Winston-Salem Coliseum aka the "Quonset Hut" which stood about where the Joel is now. It held fewer fans than the Joel. Around 8,000 from my foggy memory. Wake played home games there beginning shortly after the move of the campus to Winston-Salem.
1964 photo of what was.

https://www.digitalforsyth.org/photos/browse/structures-buildings-winston-salem-war-memorial-coliseum

Wake would move big selling "home" games to the Greensboro Coliseum to maximize revenue from ticket sales. Revenue from basketball ticket sales was the major source of funding for all Wake athletics. TV revenue was small back then.

Wake did not have the money to build a new facility by itself. And the old. 30+ year old facility needed to be replaced. Talk about turning off recruits. Hence the Wake/Winston-Salem partnership to build the Joel.

Wake could have continued playing in the old W-S Coliseum until it fell down. And continued to move "big seller" games to Greensboro.

That's another "what might have been." Duke, NC State and u*NC "home" games in Greensboro, complete with masses of fans in red or shades of blue.

Some on here only remember the two seasons (1987-1988 and 1988-1989) when Wake played all home games in Greensboro.

This is not correct. Wake moved the majority of its home schedule to Greensboro starting in the 82-83 season. All of the ACC games and the big out of conference games were played in GSO from that season until the Joel opened up. Wake continued to play the mid and low major out of conference games in WS but that was it.

Wake never had to move the entire schedule to Greensboro, even when the Joel was being built.

 

[ChrisL68]

This is not correct. Wake moved the majority of its home schedule to Greensboro starting in the 82-83 season. All of the ACC games and the big out of conference games were played in GSO from that season until the Joel opened up. Wake continued to play the mid and low major out of conference games in WS but that was it.

Wake never had to move the entire schedule to Greensboro, even when the Joel was being built.

I don't think this is completely accurate. We always played a conference game or two in Greensboro since the mid 70s, but I believe at least some ACC games were still in WS until the late 80s.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/wake-forest/1985-schedule.html (EDIT I am not sure how accurate that site is).

I distinctly remember a game where Tacy got into it with Len Bias in the WSMC.