Wake Forest vs. Florida State Game Thread

[PhDeac]

Thanks. Woods was out of the game. Calling a timeout to get him back on the floor would have been a basic adjustment.

Bubble, I made the case a few games ago that having Collins in the middle 30 is more important than having him in the last 5 minutes. He helps with post scoring and rebounding. We may need three point shooting or FTs in late game.

Crawford and Woods are more necessary late game, but it's not worth sacrificing leads to save them for the end of the game especially when our backups are such a bad matchup.

 

[asb]

Manning used the zone pretty regularly as part of multiple defenses.

Yes, but he does not stay with it for more than a few possessions. I wonder if this team would be more effective defensively playing zone as the primary defense (although that could lead to additional rebounding problems). FSU just wore our perimeter players out as became evident towards the end. In person, you could see Wake was living dangerously given the clear physical mismatches outside.

 

[canadiandeac]

Yes, but he does not stay with it for more than a few possessions. I wonder if this team would be more effective defensively playing zone as the primary defense (although that could lead to additional rebounding problems). FSU just wore our perimeter players out as became evident towards the end. In person, you could see Wake was living dangerously given the clear physical mismatches outside.

We benefit a lot by teams that can't shoot 3's, which is obviously the point of a 2-3 zone. But I like what Danny did by switching up the defense every few positions. it cause confusion on FSU's part, but it was not enough to overcome the physical advantage they had at every position. Their talent wore on us and we had no one to go to.

 

[knowell]

Thanks. Woods was out of the game. Calling a timeout to get him back on the floor would have been a basic adjustment.

Bubble, I made the case a few games ago that having Collins in the middle 30 is more important than having him in the last 5 minutes. He helps with post scoring and rebounding. We may need three point shooting or FTs in late game.

Crawford and Woods are more necessary late game, but it's not worth sacrificing leads to save them for the end of the game especially when our backups are such a bad matchup.

100%

 

[PTownDeac]

Yes, but he does not stay with it for more than a few possessions. I wonder if this team would be more effective defensively playing zone as the primary defense (although that could lead to additional rebounding problems). FSU just wore our perimeter players out as became evident towards the end. In person, you could see Wake was living dangerously given the clear physical mismatches outside.

I've been saying we should go zone for the last two seasons. We clearly can't guard ACC teams man to man. A zone would also probably help keep John Collins out of foul trouble.

 

[MichDeac25]

Two games account for almost half his turnovers. You're letting those games cloud your perspective.

Have you not watched Crawford repeatedly in tight games or at the end of the games? Yes, he's made some long 3's to win or tie a couple games. Has he ever driven to get a better shot or draw a foul in those situations? No. In tougher games and in tougher situations, he's made absolutely boneheaded turnovers or decisions that have effectively sealed the game. Northwestern, Xavier, FSU, and that's just off the top of my head this season.

How this escapes you while you hammer Manning for "rotations" or not calling a timeout is beyond me and frankly disingenuous.

Crawford is a phenomenal athletic talent. But his brain isn't quite wired right in crunch time, at least not yet. When your PG has 7 TO's against a top-20 team on the road, you're probably not going to win that game. See also Northwestern, 9 TO's. At Xavier he had less TO's, but he had a huge one with the game on the line when he tried some behind the back pass to Collins in the lane. He then came down the court on the next possession and turned it over again. Last night, he played horribly the last 6 minutes or so. But even at halftime, with 6 seconds left on the clock, he's your man and he has the ball. But then he passes it from beyond the 3-point line to SJM on the other side of the block who is completely guarded for an easy TO.

You can talk all you want about how Manning's lack of TO's could stem the run. At best, that argument can't be measured. Crawford's TO's are visible and measurable. And they're killing us in big games.

That said, FSU had some pretty clear advantages last night and people need to take off the black and gold glasses. Reading this board, you'd think we had lost to Boston College on the road last night. We lost to a top-20 ACC team in their house who has only lost one game. Those victories don't grow on trees. FSU was huge and athletic.

 

[bluefish]

Watched the replay after work. They had too many horses and we had too few. Fresh legs take over in the end. Spurs b-ball.

 

[tigerswood]

We have one good post player, who cannot afford to have an off night. Even a Chris Ellis/David Weaver/Josh Pumpfaker would be huge for this team. Alas, Doral and SJM still have a long way to go.

 

[RJKarl]

At the end of games, other than Crawford, most of our guys turn into Chris Webber and disappear. They stop moving. They stand around. They don't set picks. It's very hard to get the ball to someone who isn't moving. It's not about coaching, because you see how they move for the other 36 mpg.

During the run, our guys stopped playing Crawford was the only one who was playing with confidence. Guess who had the most TOs in the NBA last season? Harden, Westbrook, Wall, Rondo (Curry, James and Durant were also in the Top 10). The more you have the ball. The more TOS you will have.

 

[RJKarl]

Watched the replay after work. They had too many horses and we had too few. Fresh legs take over in the end. Spurs b-ball.

Don't bother them with logic or basketball knowledge or the fact that this is what many said would happen.

 

[MichDeac25]

At the end of games, other than Crawford, most of our guys turn into Chris Webber and disappear. They stop moving. They stand around. They don't set picks. It's very hard to get the ball to someone who isn't moving. It's not about coaching, because you see how they move for the other 36 mpg.

During the run, our guys stopped playing Crawford was the only one who was playing with confidence. Guess who had the most TOs in the NBA last season? Harden, Westbrook, Wall, Rondo (Curry, James and Durant were also in the Top 10). The more you have the ball. The more TOS you will have.

Maybe. But this doesn't explain Crawford's TO's. Some of them are absolutely brain dead. Why on earth would he attempt a pass to SJM from beyond the 3-point line to the other side of the block with 6 seconds left in the 1st half. Crawford's the man in that situation. You have your man isolated beyond the 3 point line. Make a move and make something happen.

 

[Buckwild]

Let's try not to freak out too much. We played a solid 30 minutes of ball. We looked like zombies the last 10 minutes of the game. Again though, this isn't a bad loss. FSU has athletes, tons of bodies, and Bacon is a stud. It would have been nice to steal this one on the road, but it didn't happen.

You can freak out if we aren't 2-1 after our next two games against Clemson and BC. Winning those two will be nice confident boosters for the guys. Not too many people thought we'd win this game, and we didn't. When Collins and Dinos score a combined 7 points I believe, we're bound to lose the game. Our recipe for disaster is a road game, with a team that can play 10 guys, and has length. If every team in the ACC has that then we'll be lucky to win 4-5 more games. I feel great though after sleeping on it, assuming we can play like the first 30 minutes. Only time will tell, but the best thing is to get behind the team, show up for the game on Saturday, be loud, and win the game.

 

[EagleDeac]

Crawford is a combo guard - a very good one. He is not a point guard, at least not one on a team at the level we hope to achieve.

 

[deacz]

FSU has massive players from top to bottom. They are athletic and have huge wingspans. That proved too much for our bigs tonight and it disrupted our entire plan when we lost both Collins and Moore. Even when Collins was in, Ojo was about twice his size (that guy should try tight end in the NFL) and really beat him up. Seriously, the last game on our schedule you would pick for big man foul and injury trouble would be FSU. That we stayed in the game so long with SJM and Dinos is pretty surprising.

FSU can shoot too. Our guards struggled down the stretch with FSU's guards' size, but also because they could get out and pressure us to take advantage of our lack of bigs. And they smacked the crap out of our guards as well.

I wish Manning had called a TO with about 6 mins left but I doubt it would have mattered. Our issue tonight was personnel (or lack thereof due to fouls and injury) yet we hung tough. A loss to a very good FSU team that we don't match up well with on the road is nothing to fret over.

 

[deacz]

Maybe. But this doesn't explain Crawford's TO's. Some of them are absolutely brain dead. Why on earth would he attempt a pass to SJM from beyond the 3-point line to the other side of the block with 6 seconds left in the 1st half. Crawford's the man in that situation. You have your man isolated beyond the 3 point line. Make a move and make something happen.

He had three down the stretch last night that just made absolutely no sense no matter the situation. Had a lot to do with FSU's run.

 

[Buttermaker]

when we beat cleamson this weekend, will yall please stop whinning?

Yes. Until the next ugly loss.

 

[RJKarl]

Maybe. But this doesn't explain Crawford's TO's. Some of them are absolutely brain dead. Why on earth would he attempt a pass to SJM from beyond the 3-point line to the other side of the block with 6 seconds left in the 1st half. Crawford's the man in that situation. You have your man isolated beyond the 3 point line. Make a move and make something happen.

How does it explain some of the TOs? As a well known coach told me, TOs for a good HS PG are not a useful stat. Good HS PGs know where his teammates should be, but sometimes they don't. We don't have that many good players. Only a couple really know where they should be.

If you look at our offensive sets, they are really good and very efficient but very basic. We don't have the horses to go to the next level yet.

Using anything with Sam at this point is kinda useless. He's just that far behind.

Yes, Bryant makes a bad TO here and there, but the reality is he has to force some plays due to our talent level. We see 10 negative posts for every bad play he makes and only a couple positive ones in an entire game when he plays great.

We were grossly outmanned last night. When they turned up the D on MW and Brandon (and there was no JC), Bryant is really in trouble. He had to force his play. He didn't do as well as he could have, but the reality is he was out there on an island.

Yes, he needs to improve, but we need to give him better talent to play with more.

 

[Buttermaker]

And one more thing. Would it be inappropriate to put a shock collar on Wilbekin and zap him every time he tries to take it to the hoop over multiple defenders that are a foot taller than him and tons more athletic? I swear he can't be shooting even 5% on those plays over his career, and he is almost never able to draw a foul call. It's like watching a 5th grader trying to score on high school players. Really, really frustrates me.

Completely appropriate. And a great idea.

 

[MichDeac25]

How does it explain some of the TOs? As a well known coach told me, TOs for a good HS PG are not a useful stat. Good HS PGs know where his teammates should be, but sometimes they don't. We don't have that many good players. Only a couple really know where they should be.

If you look at our offensive sets, they are really good and very efficient but very basic. We don't have the horses to go to the next level yet.

Using anything with Sam at this point is kinda useless. He's just that far behind.

Yes, Bryant makes a bad TO here and there, but the reality is he has to force some plays due to our talent level. We see 10 negative posts for every bad play he makes and only a couple positive ones in an entire game when he plays great.

We were grossly outmanned last night. When they turned up the D on MW and Brandon (and there was no JC), Bryant is really in trouble. He had to force his play. He didn't do as well as he could have, but the reality is he was out there on an island.

Yes, he needs to improve, but we need to give him better talent to play with more.

You and I agree on a lot with respect to the basketball team. I think some of Crawford's TO's show that his brain stops functioning. Other than that, I think he's really good. Overall, we were outmanned last night. But Craw's TO's in big moments cannot be blamed on the lack of movement by his teammates. No look behind the back passes are a bigger factor. See Xavier game to Collins with 1:30 to play with the game tied. Collins was moving to the hoop and Craw fired off a no look behind the back pass to Collins behind him that was astoundingly dumb. I was at the game at mid court about 15 rows up. Xavier fans around me thought it was hilarious. A behind the back pass last night at the top of the 3-point line to Woods? Just bizarre for how basic of a pass the situation called for. It was just a pass around the perimeter.

And I completely agree with you that this team needs another wing player who is really good who can handle the ball and is a scoring threat in crunch time beside BC.

 

[RJKarl]

Give us a player or two more and see what happens.