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Wake Forest vs. Florida State Game Thread

Shake said:
I think from a fan's perspective we've sucked for a long time. This is likely year #7 with no postseason play. While DM isn't responsible for the first 4 years he must be aware that taking over our program assumes an urgency and that if he goes a 3rd year without any type of postseason in my mind and opinion he should be on the hottest of seats for year 4. I will agree we're better but if you want to be an elite program being a little better each year is probably not progress and actually could mean falling further behind given the strength of the ACC.

At this point in year 3 are we any better quantitatively than the same point in year 3 of Buzz?
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Yes. We'd have been down by 16 in the first half under [Redacted].
 
I'm annoyed that Danny seems to conserve his TOs as if they offer rollover opportunities for future games. I'm ecstatic that, for the first time in almost a decade, we go into road games against Top 20 ACC foes believing we have every right to walk out with a W.
 
daaberry said:
Hey, Kwe Parker has 15 pts this year. I am sure he would have some crazy dunks during warm ups that would have the fans buzzing. Lets not forget the great Eli Wright who has 31 pts so far this season. If Childress' last name was different, everyone would be praising Manning for finding another gem that was underrated by the gurus. I can't think of a name that Manning missed out on that would have made a difference thus far. Maybe Giles if that meant he stayed at his high school & didn't tear his knee up.
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Regardless, the freshman class has really let us down. Thanks to Bzz, it was inevitable that our senior class would be a cipher (kudos to the staff for bringing in Arians) and that our junior class would be mediocre. Through recruiting and the Woods transfer, we have a solid group of sophomores, but that still only gives us 1.5 classes for three years. We needed some freshmen who were capable of coming in and giving solid minutes right away, and we haven't gotten that. Whether that's due to missing on top targets, investing too many resources in Giles, or something else entirely, it's a significant liability
 
My biggest beef with the rotation is how often Chill and Wilbekin are on the court together.
 
daaberry said:
Hey, Kwe Parker has 15 pts this year. I am sure he would have some crazy dunks during warm ups that would have the fans buzzing. Lets not forget the great Eli Wright who has 31 pts so far this season. If Childress' last name was different, everyone would be praising Manning for finding another gem that was underrated by the gurus. I can't think of a name that Manning missed out on that would have made a difference thus far. Maybe Giles if that meant he stayed at his high school & didn't tear his knee up.
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Childress is shooting 32.4% and has a 2.6 to 1.7 Assist to Turnover ratio. I wouldn't exactly call him a "diamond in the rough" or what have you. He's pretty much played to his ranking so far. Would've been nice to have McEwen.
 
Shake said:
I think from a fan's perspective we've sucked for a long time. This is likely year #7 with no postseason play. While DM isn't responsible for the first 4 years he must be aware that taking over our program assumes an urgency and that if he goes a 3rd year without any type of postseason in my mind and opinion he should be on the hottest of seats for year 4. I will agree we're better but if you want to be an elite program being a little better each year is probably not progress and actually could mean falling further behind given the strength of the ACC.

At this point in year 3 are we any better quantitatively than the same point in year 3 of Buzz?
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Manning, Year 3: 9-4 (0-1), #46 in KenPom, losses to #5 Villanova, #43 Northwestern, #17 Xavier, #23 Florida State
Bzz, Year 3: 7-6, (0-1), #156 in KenPom, losses to #49 UConn, #89 Iona (by 26), #136 Nebraska (by 16, at home), #84 Richmond, #117 Seton Hall (at home), #6 Duke

Yes, I'd say we're quantitatively better
 
TripleDeacon said:
They attempted fifteen in the first half.
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They had a hot shooting half playing from behind and shot more than usual. They shot their average 3PA in the 2nd.
 
PhDeac said:
They had a hot shooting half playing from behind and shot more than usual. They shot their average 3PA in the 2nd.
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I understood 27's point to be that they took an inordinate amount of threes in the first half. For a team averaging nineteen threes a game, fifteen in a half is inordinate.
 
PhDeac said:
They had a hot shooting half playing from behind and shot more than usual. They shot their average 3PA in the 2nd.
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I think their first shot was an NBA 3, from a guy that was 1-9 in the last three games. They fell in love with the 3 and deviated from their game plan. In the 2nd half they did what they should have in the first, beat us up inside.

I'm glad so many are not worried. I think we are now 0-23 on the road in the ACC, DM is 0-19. Even BC has a handful of wins on the road during that time. Yet this crap is ok by some standards because we played 'tough' for 30 minutes. Well I've got news for everyone, playing good games for 30 minutes only will get us 0-31 and DM 0-27 on the road.

We can't have our coaching staff having brain farts and our players melting down when the pressure is increased by our opponents. Sure FSU has better players etc, but do does most of the ACC. If our team wants to win it's fair share of ACC games, we can't afford the mistakes the coaches and players made yesterday. If DM was being paid as an unproven coach, it would be somewhat ok for him to be learning, but I believe he's being paid $1-2/yr which is a lot to pay a guy to learn on the job. I do expect our sophs and frosh's to be learning as they go.

Somewhat of a summary of the issues from the game

- Collins with 2 fouls (one on each side) 18 feet from the hoop (maybe just maybe we should figure out how not to put him in that position, hopefully he learns from it).
- Woods and BC with 2 fouls get a seat on the bench. Manning cannot yank them both with 2 fouls. Woods, by all acounts, is a smart player and as such I think he should be trusted to not pick up a stupid 3rd foul in the first half. He ended the game with 2 fouls. We keep playing with these guys until they pick up their 3rd, which since they are not foul machines they should be given more rope. We had some level of control in the 1st half but pissed that away be putting them on the bench.
- MW and Childress have to be much smarter and not drive into the traffic in the lane, neither are proven finishers in those circumstances
- During our meltdown, BC, MW and Childress all did not value the ball. You could clearly see some of those TO's coming. BC should know better.
- DM needs use every time out he has to keep us in games like this. Those saved TO's were useless when we lost by 16. Sure it's completely possible that it wouldn't have mattered but you have to try and stop the run and momentum FSU had, instead he just let it snowball. This is basic stuff. I'm concerned our assistants are not in his ear telling him to take a TO. If as everyone says, FSU has superior talent and depth, it even makes more sense to use the TO's. Give our guys a blow and try and keep us in striking distance of the lead. Short of going on a 8-8 run of 3's we are not coming back in the last 5 minutes against better teams once we get down 10.

Someone is going to have to step up and take some leadership on this team and that includes the coaching staff or we are going to be sitting here in March with no ACC road wins and talking about how much better 4-14 is than 2-16. From what I've seen the only players that can be the leaders for this team are BC or Woods. I'm guessing that Woods will be a challenge since he just go here. So we better hope BC get's tired of this crap and starts pushing the rest of the team.
 
OldGoldBeard said:
Manning, Year 3: 9-4 (0-1), #46 in KenPom, losses to #5 Villanova, #43 Northwestern, #17 Xavier, #23 Florida State
Bzz, Year 3: 7-6, (0-1), #156 in KenPom, losses to #49 UConn, #89 Iona (by 26), #136 Nebraska (by 16, at home), #84 Richmond, #117 Seton Hall (at home), #6 Duke

Yes, I'd say we're quantitatively better
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Deac83 said:
I'm glad so many are not worried. I think we are now 0-23 on the road in the ACC, DM is 0-19. Even BC has a handful of wins on the road during that time. Yet this crap is ok by some standards because we played 'tough' for 30 minutes. Well I've got news for everyone, playing good games for 30 minutes only will get us 0-31 and DM 0-27 on the road.

We can't have our coaching staff having brain farts and our players melting down when the pressure is increased by our opponents. Sure FSU has better players etc, but do does most of the ACC. If our team wants to win it's fair share of ACC games, we can't afford the mistakes the coaches and players made yesterday. If DM was being paid as an unproven coach, it would be somewhat ok for him to be learning, but I believe he's being paid $1-2/yr which is a lot to pay a guy to learn on the job. I do expect our sophs and frosh's to be learning as they go.
.
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In Year 3 under Manning we have better talent than under Bz, but IMO DM has no clue how to use what he has. I hope I am wrong, I really do, but last night is just another example of his inability to get it done when the pressure is on late in the game. Last night, during our late game meltdown, I don't know if DM freezes up or just has no clue what to do. Either way the players are directly effected by his lack/poor decision making in "crunch time". A quality coach, would have called a TO, and at the very least tried to stop FSUs momentum and try to instill confidence into our players.

Even if we beat Clemson and BC at home, as well as win other home games, but continue to lose close games on the road in the same manner as last night, then is this really improvement in Year 3? This was suppose to be the year that Manning would start showing "results" because it took two years to clean up Bz's mess. However, all I see are the same coaching mistakes but with more talented players. Furthermore, how would other quality coaches, Larranaga, B. Williams, Hamilton do with the players on our team?
 
So if we lose to a team that is massively more talented and a horrible group of match-ups, it shows Danny is incometent.

Cool. Glad to know it.
 
RJKarl said:
So if we lose to a team that is massively more talented and a horrible group of match-ups, it shows Danny is incometent.

Cool. Glad to know it.
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I'm not sure that's what anybody is saying, RJ.
 
BamaDeac said:
In Year 3 under Manning we have better talent than under Bz, but IMO DM has no clue how to use what he has. I hope I am wrong, I really do, but last night is just another example of his inability to get it done when the pressure is on late in the game. Last night, during our late game meltdown, I don't know if DM freezes up or just has no clue what to do. Either way the players are directly effected by his lack/poor decision making in "crunch time". A quality coach, would have called a TO, and at the very least tried to stop FSUs momentum and try to instill confidence into our players.

Even if we beat Clemson and BC at home, as well as win other home games, but continue to lose close games on the road in the same manner as last night, then is this really improvement in Year 3? This was suppose to be the year that Manning would start showing "results" because it took two years to clean up Bz's mess. However, all I see are the same coaching mistakes but with more talented players. Furthermore, how would other quality coaches, Larranaga, B. Williams, Hamilton do with the players on our team?
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I don't think any of our losses are due to bad gameday coaching. Don't like how DM uses timeouts, but its not clear that would have made a difference in this game. We have an incomplete roster with little depth. Overall, our offensive sets, spacing, rotations etc seem better this year than last year. Free throw shooting is now a strength. We have some quality grad transfers. Dino, JC and BC are better this year.

Our defense is one of the worst rated in the ACC. I don't know if thats more of a function of the roster or coaching... maybe someone like Wrangor could go into that. I would think guys like JC and BC would be better on defense, but they seem to be in bad positions all the time.

The biggest criticism of DM could prob be his last recruiting class. We have some quality grad transfers, but we are getting very little production from our freshmen. Obviously TBD on their career production, but we need guys who can contribute now. Thats bad for a rebuilding program. When you see a team like FSU that goes 10+ deep, it makes it clearer that we are not built to beat top 25 teams unless everything goes right, like the shooting performance against LSU.

I honestly don't think any of the coaches you mentioned would have this team in a different position. Is Hamilton a great coach? He has the right roster this year. Izzo has 5 losses already. You need the right guys. Our worst loss was against Northwestern, when we seemed to collapse defensively against a beatable team in the second half. FSU is a lot better than Northwestern.
 
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Defend home court & things will be fine. Syracuse went 9-9 last season going 3-6 on the road. 2 of those 3 were BC & Wake. They then lost their first ACC tourney game & ended up in the Final Four. It is very hard to win on the road.
 
Good post, Paddy. Depth is the biggest issue with this team. Hope we go after another Arians-type grad transfer to go along with Chaundee. Not all that confident in Washington or Mitchell for next year and not expecting much from Melo as a true frosh, either.
 
Our bench played 67 minutes, scored 22 points on 40% shooting with 6 turnovers.

FSU's bench played 75 minutes, scored 24 points on 46% shooting with 5 turnovers.

Mayes and Bacon combined for 46 points. Woods and Crawford played identical minutes and scored 32 points combined.

It wasn't timeouts or lineups. It's not that our bench played terribly or we have no depth. Their two best guards destroyed our two best guards in the same number of minutes played, and Collins was a no show because he reacted poorly to Ojo's physical play. Woods started hot so it's easy to overlook the fact that he made exactly 1 field goal in the 2nd half prior to FSU taking a 12 point lead with around 4 minutes left.

If you want to slam Manning for something, it probably should be how he's handled Doral and SJM. SJM had 5 DNP's and 5 games with 5 or fewer junk minutes before getting what appears to be a promotion to basically splitting time with Doral. You have to assume Doral hasn't matured as much as Manning thought heading into the season, and throwing SJM to the fire against legit teams with very little real game time prior to that means we're pretty much fucked if Collins has foul trouble. 5 fouls, no points, 11 minutes, 2 boards against FSU really hurt.
 
Another factor maybe that Collins is not ready for the kind of physical low post play that FSU presented.
 
mebanedeac said:
Another factor maybe that Collins is not ready for the kind of physical low post play that FSU presented and the NBA will present.
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Addendum.

SJM is there to fill up space and play aggressive defense without respect to foul trouble.
 
Moore was a great fit for this game because he was quick enough to stay in front of their post players but big enough to alter the shot. We missed his 5-7 minutes in the second half. Sjm was simply a half step slow and was forced to foul. McClinton provides no interior threat. Collins was playing olay defense because he had 4 fouls and Dinos just isn't a good interior defender.

Until Collins learns how to move his feet and square up defenders , particularly when giving helpside, our interior defense is going to really struggle. Moore is the only really imposing interior defender we have and he is a massive negative on offense and fouls too much to stay in the game for long.


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