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Wake Forest vs. Florida State Game Thread

i tried to wait until the knee jerkers got finished bashing Manning or the players. FSU is a good team and they were the better team last night, all game long. we played hard and stayed in the game without Collins (which i would have never thought would be possible) and Moore. Our bench, post specifically, got paper thin and our PGs did not have a great game.

Manning didn't have his best game, but i feel we need to say this yet again...most of us here said it would take 5 years to recover from the previous coach. it is only year 3! things need to be worked on but the WFU community has damn multiple personalities...makes it tough to read through this drivel.
 
RJKarl said:
Give us a player or two more and see what happens.
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Hopefully we can add a late signee from the Class of 2017 who can contribute. I expect Chaundree to contribute right off the bat, but at 6'9, 180 pounds, I'm not so sure as to how effective Melo will be in Year 1 (unless he's got the skill set of Jonathan Isaac). Our entire freshman class is averaging a combined 7.9 ppg. I expected more.
 
DeacDownUnder said:
Hopefully we can add a late signee from the Class of 2017 who can contribute. I expect Chaundree to contribute right off the bat, but at 6'9, 180 pounds, I'm not so sure as to how effective Melo will be in Year 1 (unless he's got the skill set of Jonathan Isaac). Our entire freshman class is averaging a combined 7.9 ppg. I expected more.
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As a SG/SF, he might not need to add much weight. Even 10-15 pounds would give him enough.

I'm hoping Wash can step up a little next year.
 
warak said:
i tried to wait until the knee jerkers got finished bashing Manning or the players. FSU is a good team and they were the better team last night, all game long. we played hard and stayed in the game without Collins (which i would have never thought would be possible) and Moore. Our bench, post specifically, got paper thin and our PGs did not have a great game.

Manning didn't have his best game, but i feel we need to say this yet again...most of us here said it would take 5 years to recover from the previous coach. it is only year 3! things need to be worked on but the WFU community has damn multiple personalities...makes it tough to read through this drivel.
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This. We may not face that level of ball pressure again all year, and FSU might have the best back court in the ACC, so our guards struggling was to be expected. And overall they hit a ton of shots and played well actually. The zone switches confused FSU and drew a lot of 3's (which unfortunately they made early or this would be a different conversation), we ran our offense well until our C team had to log significant minutes due to fouls.

The real take away from that game wasn't Manning's timeouts or subs, it was John Collins being intimidated by size and athleticism. Ojo is a monster, and from his first touch you could see Collins was uncomfortable. He couldn't seal him posting up and lost an entry pass, and the 2nd foul (while absurd from a standpoint of consistency) was him throwing his body into Ojo (or Isaac, can't remember which) to try to get a seal so he could just catch an entry pass. It was excessive and he got flagged for it, which he probably shouldn't have, but just the awkward effort, and the later attempt at a deep baseline fadeaway, the frustration after almost every play on both ends of the floor - he's got to fix that stuff to be an NBA player. Until now he's been able to out-athlete some weak inside defenders, but in the ACC against legit centers he's got to be more creative and smarter on both ends. Watch some Jamaal Levy tapes maybe.

When Collins struggles that much, the other net result is that we kill Dinos. With an effective Collins, Dinos is a stretch 4 who can make bunnies inside, get rebounds as the 2nd rebounder, pop out for short jumpers, etc. Without Collins he's tied to the paint and is limited to being a true 4. To his credit he's bulked up and can handle it ok now, but he's not a back-to-the-basket guy offensively so he just won't score.

Last year we had all those horrible losses in games where our 2 and 3 spots produced almost nothing. Now we're coming off the opposite problem game where our 4 and 5 spots produced almost nothing.

Hopefully Collins continues to learn and be positive against better teams, instead of acting frustrated.
 
DCDeac said:
This. We may not face that level of ball pressure again all year, and FSU might have the best back court in the ACC, so our guards struggling was to be expected. And overall they hit a ton of shots and played well actually. The zone switches confused FSU and drew a lot of 3's (which unfortunately they made early or this would be a different conversation), we ran our offense well until our C team had to log significant minutes due to fouls.

The real take away from that game wasn't Manning's timeouts or subs, it was John Collins being intimidated by size and athleticism. Ojo is a monster, and from his first touch you could see Collins was uncomfortable. He couldn't seal him posting up and lost an entry pass, and the 2nd foul (while absurd from a standpoint of consistency) was him throwing his body into Ojo (or Isaac, can't remember which) to try to get a seal so he could just catch an entry pass. It was excessive and he got flagged for it, which he probably shouldn't have, but just the awkward effort, and the later attempt at a deep baseline fadeaway, the frustration after almost every play on both ends of the floor - he's got to fix that stuff to be an NBA player. Until now he's been able to out-athlete some weak inside defenders, but in the ACC against legit centers he's got to be more creative and smarter on both ends. Watch some Jamaal Levy tapes maybe.

When Collins struggles that much, the other net result is that we kill Dinos. With an effective Collins, Dinos is a stretch 4 who can make bunnies inside, get rebounds as the 2nd rebounder, pop out for short jumpers, etc. Without Collins he's tied to the paint and is limited to being a true 4. To his credit he's bulked up and can handle it ok now, but he's not a back-to-the-basket guy offensively so he just won't score.

Last year we had all those horrible losses in games where our 2 and 3 spots produced almost nothing. Now we're coming off the opposite problem game where our 4 and 5 spots produced almost nothing.

Hopefully Collins continues to learn and be positive against better teams, instead of acting frustrated.
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This is great analysis. Collins struggled against the physically stronger Xavier center as well.
 
I think from a fan's perspective we've sucked for a long time. This is likely year #7 with no postseason play. While DM isn't responsible for the first 4 years he must be aware that taking over our program assumes an urgency and that if he goes a 3rd year without any type of postseason in my mind and opinion he should be on the hottest of seats for year 4. I will agree we're better but if you want to be an elite program being a little better each year is probably not progress and actually could mean falling further behind given the strength of the ACC.

At this point in year 3 are we any better quantitatively than the same point in year 3 of Buzz?
 
Yes, we are in much better position than we were under the old coach. We have a top level post player, are much more athletic and have much more shooting. We also have the best player coming in since AFA.
 
FSU is just a lot better, period. This looks like the best team they have had under Hamilton. Sure, we did some bad things in the second half, but that team's bench is soooo much deeper than ours.

Hopefully this will realign some fan expectations, or you are in for a rough season. FSU looks like a team that could compete for a conference championship in most years, but they may be 5th or 6th best in the conference!

Virginia beat a good Louisville team on the road and some have suggested Virginia is down this year. State has a bonafide star. Clemson at home is no picnic coming up. There are only 2 teams you could say we are absolutely better than (Gtech, BC). The rest are tossups at best. This conference is f'ing stacked and while we have improved, we are definitely still in the bottom-third of the league and we have little depth.
 
The terrible 2016 recruiting class is really hurting this team. In a year that had remarkable depth and skill in the class, Danny and Co. pretty much whiffed on everyone.
 
RJKarl said:
Yes, we are in much better position than we were under the old coach. We have a top level post player, are much more athletic and have much more shooting. We also have the best player coming in since AFA.
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this...

this team is in way better shape for ACC play, it just so happens to be when the ACC is a monster.
 
Brief thoughts from me is that I thought we played a much better first half. THey hit some incredible shots and were fortunate to be down only 1. We were getting better looks the entire half.

The second half it was clear we were hanging on for dear life. Without an effective Collins it was going to be near impossible. Manning should have called the timeout earlier to stop momentum. He has a tendency to wait about 1 minute too long. Additionally we weren't prepared for the press switch from FSU after that timeout which cost us an immediate possession and kept the momentum on FSU s side.

Collins + Moore was a dagger. Moore was playing extremely well and would have been very effective for us against their size. Tough loss but the final score was not indicative of the game. We can beat them at home.


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Yep, not enough mention of losing Doral. He was playing well and we definitely needed him.

Any update on Doral's injury?
 
warak said:
this...

this team is in way better shape for ACC play, it just so happens to be when the ACC is a monster.
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Agreed. The ACC is a beast this year. I'm not sure what to expect out of the team this year. An NIT bid would certainly help things this year. I still have hopes for this years team and I still think we are going to beat some good squads this year at home. Next year is the year for me to really start being critical of the whole coaching staff and program. Danny won't be able to say we are young anymore. We'll see.
 
TAG1615 said:
The terrible 2016 recruiting class is really hurting this team. In a year that had remarkable depth and skill in the class, Danny and Co. pretty much whiffed on everyone.
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How are Manning's top realistic targets doing?
 
PhDeac said:
How are Manning's top realistic targets doing?
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Hey, Kwe Parker has 15 pts this year. I am sure he would have some crazy dunks during warm ups that would have the fans buzzing. Lets not forget the great Eli Wright who has 31 pts so far this season. If Childress' last name was different, everyone would be praising Manning for finding another gem that was underrated by the gurus. I can't think of a name that Manning missed out on that would have made a difference thus far. Maybe Giles if that meant he stayed at his high school & didn't tear his knee up.
 
It's not actually good that Manning's targets are underwhelming.
 
Wrangor said:
Brief thoughts from me is that I thought we played a much better first half. THey hit some incredible shots and were fortunate to be down only 1. We were getting better looks the entire half.

The second half it was clear we were hanging on for dear life. Without an effective Collins it was going to be near impossible. Manning should have called the timeout earlier to stop momentum. He has a tendency to wait about 1 minute too long. Additionally we weren't prepared for the press switch from FSU after that timeout which cost us an immediate possession and kept the momentum on FSU s side.

Collins + Moore was a dagger. Moore was playing extremely well and would have been very effective for us against their size. Tough loss but the final score was not indicative of the game. We can beat them at home.


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If anything FSU looked like the poorly coached team in the first half. There's no excuse at all for them to take that many threes given their talent. They made a lot of them and kept shooting them, which should have hurt them. Unfortunately it didn't catch up with them.
 
daaberry said:
Hey, Kwe Parker has 15 pts this year. I am sure he would have some crazy dunks during warm ups that would have the fans buzzing. Lets not forget the great Eli Wright who has 31 pts so far this season. If Childress' last name was different, everyone would be praising Manning for finding another gem that was underrated by the gurus. I can't think of a name that Manning missed out on that would have made a difference thus far. Maybe Giles if that meant he stayed at his high school & didn't tear his knee up.
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Koby McEwen at Utah State would be getting Chill's minutes right now probably. He's playing 77% of their minutes and has a 106 offensive rating. 19% assist to 15% turnover rate.
 
Deacsfan27 said:
If anything FSU looked like the poorly coached team in the first half. There's no excuse at all for them to take that many threes given their talent. They made a lot of them and kept shooting them, which should have hurt them. Unfortunately it didn't catch up with them.
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They shot 19 threes a game at 36% coming into the game. They shot 25 threes at 36% yesterday. 40% in the 1st. 30% in the 2nd.

I don't see anything crazy there.
 
PhDeac said:
They shot 19 threes a game at 36% coming into the game. They shot 25 threes at 36% yesterday. 40% in the 1st. 30% in the 2nd.

I don't see anything crazy there.
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You're right---for some reason I thought Isaac was an awful shooter and he took 6 threes. They were right at their average.
 
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