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When Manning Gets Fired

Pilchard said:
When was the last time an ACC school hired a coach who was an assistant at another program? I know that Dave Odom was an assistant at UVA when WF hired him, but that was 27 years ago.

FWIW, a name that some on this Board argued for when Manning was hired was Ben Howland. Howland's Miss. State team is rated #118 and has a 1-3 record against top 100 teams with losses to E. Tenn. State, Lehigh and UCF. His record is 7-0 against teams ranked 212 below. Miss State has played the #347 schedule with zero road games, and one OOC game against an Power 5 opponent (Oregon State).
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Speaking of Dave Odom, his son, Ryan, is doing a great job so far at UMBC this year in his first year as a head coach.
 
RaleighTriad said:
You have gone to the mat in your defense of Manning and I commend that. We all understand that the players are the ones that need to execute, but from a coaching standpoint, there are things that Manning does not do well which have caused great concern among the fans. Time Outs, substitution patterns, and situational plans is where Manning has major faults. Once again, the players have to execute, but Manning has to put them in the best position to win.
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I understand where you're coming from. The only part I agree with is "substitution patterns" or certain lineups at times. He needs to play Collins more and should never have chill and wilbekin on the court at the same time imo. He could take timeouts at some points but the ones he has the players come out and make boneheaded plays after. Situational plans is also something I disagree with as well. We've come out of timeouts multiple times that the players didn't execute the play even close to properly and you can tell if you pay close attention. Players need to execute at some point. Depth is also an issue.


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This will be year 7 with no postseason and not even a bubble team in March. Since the field expanded to 64 teams has there ever been a 7 year stretch where Wake Forest made no postseason appearance?

I'm so tired of arguing time outs, substitutions, DM has us on the right track but it takes time, if you cant see we're better then you're crazy...yada yada

Its time to effing win and earn your effing money...this is big boy basketball and we were once really good at this and now we suck.
 
Shake said:
This will be year 7 with no postseason and not even a bubble team in March. Since the field expanded to 64 teams has there ever been a 7 year stretch where Wake Forest made no postseason appearance?

I'm so tired of arguing time outs, substitutions, DM has us on the right track but it takes time, if you cant see we're better then you're crazy...yada yada

Its time to effing win and earn your effing money...this is big boy basketball and we were once really good at this and now we suck.
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Why is it a foregone conclusion that WF will not play in the NIT (or another scrubini post-season tourney)? WF is currently projected to finish 16-14 by KP, and WF will be a favorite in 6 of its remaining games (BC twice and home games against GT, State, Miami and Pitt), even if WF lost every other remaining game on its schedule (and at some point, WF is going to steal a game against someone else, like Cuse or @ Clemson, @ State or even gets a reeling Duke team), if WF won those 6 with no other wins, it would end the regular season 15-15, and play a crappy team in an ACC tourney in a play in game to seal a .500 record and NIT eligibility.

While agree that arguing for a potential NIT berth at this point is sad, if we are going to make declarative statements about the season, think it's far more likely that WF does play in the post-season (not saying the NCAAs) than not.
 
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The reality is Danny is earning his money. Our program was in the worst place it had been since at least 1968 and has it in a lot better place than it was. This is indisputable.

Will he become a star coach? We don't know.
 
i don't know what some of you are thinking. Manning will get at least one more year to turn this around...might as well get comfortable. Besides it would look really bad if we let him go sooner after he has improved the talent and recruiting efforts since he has been here. It is fair to say that his first true recruiting class is the Soph class, and i still think that our JR class was a God send, despite their lower ceiling. unfortunately Manning spent too much time on recruiting Giles and our FR class, a big one, suffered...i only blame him a little as it appeared that we were somewhere in the top 3. If he didn't try he would have been lambasted!

no coach will ever come here if we don't give Manning a fair shake, especially since the general feeling is that he has moved the program in the right direction.
 
warak, don't explain reality. It won't work.

They won't understand how being the 4th coach in ten years will not be very appetizing to a top coach.
 
FWIW I don't think 16-14 guarantees us an NIT bid but maybe I'm wrong. Again this is year 7 so let me see if theres a consensus on this year and next for DM.

Expectations:
This year - NIT
Next year = NCAA

Would we all agree that anything short of that would be disappointing or will DM need that 3rd year to get an NCAA bid?
 
warak said:
i don't know what some of you are thinking. Manning will get at least one more year to turn this around...might as well get comfortable. Besides it would look really bad if we let him go sooner after he has improved the talent and recruiting efforts since he has been here. It is fair to say that his first true recruiting class is the Soph class, and i still think that our JR class was a God send, despite their lower ceiling. unfortunately Manning spent too much time on recruiting Giles and our FR class, a big one, suffered...i only blame him a little as it appeared that we were somewhere in the top 3. If he didn't try he would have been lambasted!

no coach will ever come here if we don't give Manning a fair shake, especially since the general feeling is that he has moved the program in the right direction.
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TITCR

If Manning doesn't make the NCAAT this year or next then he needs to be fired for sure.

In reality an ACC coach should never go three years without making the NCAAT, but given where we came from I am granting Manning an exception. He needs to do a lot of work, but we are top 50 in KP right now, which isn't good by ACC standards, but it sure as hell beats where we were. I understand those that think he needs to make the NCAAT this year and don't necessarily disagree.

I'm much more concerned about how we play and if we keep getting better throughout this season than if we make the NCAAT.
 
Half of the NIT bids last year got eaten up by regular-season conference champs who didn't win their tourney. It isn't an easy tournament to make, either
 
we also need to stop the 7 year talk, Manning is in year 3 from ROCK-BOTTOM. what was done under the previous coach should not reflect on Manning outside of the deep, dark, lonely hole that we were left in when he was thankfully shown the door.

having said all of this, yes i expected us to be on the bubble this season and because ACC is so damn strong this season it would end with us in the NIT. Next year we should be near prime and ripe for a NCAA bid, less than that depends on how much less. four years should be showing dividends and if it doesn't a replacement should be considered. i do like Manning and i think he is making strides on the recruiting circuit. I just don't know if he is going to turn the corner on the coaching aspect.
 
RJKarl said:
Will he become a star coach? We don't know.
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Some of us do.

The funny thing is, I remember the day he was hired and recall that a lot of people were not that excited. I remember being pretty excited myself, just because of the name recognition that I thought he'd have with recruits (especially recruits' families). For me, the bloom is off the rose because he is over 50 years old, and we've now seen what he is and isn't capable of in a big time conference. Again, this isn't to say that he hasn't made strides. But a star coach he is not, nor will he ever be.
 
Pilchard said:
When was the last time an ACC school hired a coach who was an assistant at another program? I know that Dave Odom was an assistant at UVA when WF hired him, but that was 27 years ago.

FWIW, a name that some on this Board argued for when Manning was hired was Ben Howland. Howland's Miss. State team is rated #118 and has a 1-3 record against top 100 teams with losses to E. Tenn. State, Lehigh and UCF. His record is 7-0 against teams ranked 212 below. Miss State has played the #347 schedule with zero road games, and one OOC game against an Power 5 opponent (Oregon State).
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That's a great question. The only outside assistant since Odom I can think of is Sidney Lowe who was an NBA assistant.
 
There's really no reason to fire Manning while he still has the program on the upswing and hasn't reached his ceiling, and while Wellman is still the AD. Let's at least see what his ceiling is.
 
Or the fact that we are 44 in kenpom and have top 10 toughest schedule? Guess the Manning haters dont look at that stuff.
 
I think people can look at the big picture and recognize both things:

Wake is better than we have been. We definitely should be better than we have been because [Redacted] was straight trash. Doesn't matter we are where we need to be. This will take time, how much time? That's the debate.

Danny Manning needs to improve on his in-game coaching and substitution patterns, as they are a glaring weakness and possibly costing us (they are certainly not a positive).
 
I am pro-Coach Manning, and acknowledge that Manning is coaching the 2017-18 Deacs regardless of how this season plays out, but after the many mind-boggling losses over the last two years, Manning didn't help himself by opening this year's home conference season against a beatable foe, by blowing a late 13 point lead and getting outscored 15-0 to closeout the game. Pathetic.

If a reincarnated John Wooden was coaching Wake Forest, it would be fair to question his or any other coach's chops after that collapse on Saturday. Manning needs to start winning some close games. This is the ACC; every team (with the possible exception of tonight's opponent) is good; the games are going to be close; so, if you don't start winning close games, you aren't going to win.. ever.

Then again, Nebraska, yes, Nebraska, did essentially the same thing to Mark Turgeon @ MD this weekend (MD blew a 12 point lead in the final minutes by being outscored 14-0 to end the game). So, going scoreless for the final 10 possessions does happen to other schools or maybe it's just a Kansas/Larry Brown disciple thing.
 
Deacsfan27 said:
I think people can look at the big picture and recognize both things:

Wake is better than we have been. We definitely should be better than we have been because [Redacted] was straight trash. Doesn't matter we are where we need to be. This will take time, how much time? That's the debate.

Danny Manning needs to improve on his in-game coaching and substitution patterns, as they are a glaring weakness and possibly costing us (they are certainly not a positive).
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Agree with all of this. As long as he's got the program trending upward and Wellman's still the AD, we might as well give him the opportunity to learn those things on the job.
 
There's also another option: bring in someone with head coaching experience to help with these things. As many have pointed out, the entire staff's inexperienced, not just Manning. That's something that could be fixed without resetting the progress that has been made.
 
Pilchard said:
I am pro-Coach Manning, and acknowledge that Manning is coaching the 2017-18 Deacs regardless of how this season plays out, but after the many mind-boggling losses over the last two years, Manning didn't help himself by opening this year's home conference season against a beatable foe, by blowing a late 13 point lead and getting outscored 15-0 to closeout the game. Pathetic.

If a reincarnated John Wooden was coaching Wake Forest, it would be fair to question his or any other coach's chops after that collapse on Saturday. Manning needs to start winning some close games. This is the ACC; every team (with the possible exception of tonight's opponent) is good; the games are going to be close; so, if you don't start winning close games, you aren't going to win.. ever.

Then again, Nebraska, yes, Nebraska, did essentially the same thing to Mark Turgeon @ MD this weekend (MD blew a 12 point lead in the final minutes by being outscored 14-0 to end the game). So, going scoreless for the final 10 possessions does happen to other schools or maybe it's just a Kansas/Larry Brown disciple thing.
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I definitely think that we should have won the game on Saturday and it comes down to Manning to figure how to win those games and keep them from getting within a "chance" to lose it (i.e. keep the damn game out of reach when you get up 13 so you can't lose to chance late).

That being said, Wake was playing over its head in that game. They were projected to lose by one and were up by 13. Should they have won the game? Of course, we were up 13 with under 8 minutes left...but unfortunately the game leveled out to become about what it should have been. When Clemson started coming back we fell apart...again. It's not THAT we lost to Clemson, it's HOW we lost.

The team is absolutely no different today than it was on Friday before that game. We stayed basically the same in KP and are still projected to get 7 wins. If we had let Clemson come back and held on then we all would have felt better (after all wins matter), but we would have been the same team. Losing that game just means that we have to beat one more A-caliber team than expected. Certainly still doable, but a lot harder.

TL;DR---good teams don't play close games. We lost a close game that should have never been close. The team is still the same team that it was before winning or losing that game.
 
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