HB2 Strikes Again

[2&2 Slider To Leyritz]

You seem to be conflating rights, laws, and need and then wrapping it in the bow of sexual privacy. Which makes for a messy argument.

Like everyone else, transgender people don't have the right to sexual privacy in the bathroom. However, as you stated, it was working pretty well to have transgender people use the bathroom of their expressed gender. So Charlotte decided to codify that working system.

And then Conservatives in Raleigh flipped out and decided that what had been working for years was actually the wrong way to do things.

I'm not conflating anything, I am simply asking for the justifiction for the Charlotte ordinance, which does bring together all of those issues. Government (especially a body whose primary activity is granting zoning variances, not civil rights issues) doesn't codify things simply because they "work well" they codify them because a right needs protecting or because the alternate choice/action is undesirable for some reason. Mustard on hotdogs works well, but it isn't codified. Not pissing on the toilet seat works well, but that aspect of bathroom decorum isn't codified.

In this instance, if there is no right to sexual privacy as you claim, and there is no Charlotte bathroom safety issue, then what was the justification to codify the status quo other than political grandstanding?

 

[DistrictDeacon]

I'm not conflating anything, I am simply asking for the justifiction for the Charlotte ordinance, which does bring together all of those issues. Government (especially a body whose primary activity is granting zoning variances, not civil rights issues) doesn't codify things simply because they "work well" they codify them because a right needs protecting or because the alternate choice/action is undesirable for some reason. Mustard on hotdogs works well, but it isn't codified. Not pissing on the toilet seat works well, but that aspect of bathroom decorum isn't codified.

In this instance, if there is no right to sexual privacy as you claim, and there is no Charlotte bathroom safety issue, then what was the justification to codify the status quo other than political grandstanding?

I'm not going to claim I know exactly why they did what they did, but perhaps it was to protect against the possibility of the "undesirable situation" of a business deciding to enforce a policy where patrons had to use the bathroom corresponding to their birth sex. Perhaps they thought it was desirable to head that situation off at the pass. Just because it hadn't been an issue before then, perhaps there was a sense that it would become one in the future, and they wanted to be proactive.

Or they believed that it was their responsibility to protect their LGBT citizens from discrimination.

Do you see how it could have been more than just "grandstanding"?

 

[2&2 Slider To Leyritz]

Honestly, no. Obviously we aren't going to agree on this, but I don't see how addressing possible future transgender bathroom issues hits the top 1,000 pressing matters to be considered by the Charlotte City Council without political grandstanding being the driving issue. City traffic patterns, sure. Zoning densities, sure. Eduction budget, teacher pay, and property taxes, absolutely. CMPD protocols, arguably. Possible future transgender bathroom issues with zero evidence of any current problems, no fucking way.

 

[Deacsfan27]

How was it brought up to begin with to the City Council last year? Were there complaints about rights not being protected? It does seem like a weird thing that was brought up to begin with if there were no initial problems.

 

[DistrictDeacon]

Honestly, no. Obviously we aren't going to agree on this, but I don't see how addressing possible future transgender bathroom issues hits the top 1,000 pressing matters to be considered by the Charlotte City Council without political grandstanding being the driving issue. City traffic patterns, sure. Zoning densities, sure. Eduction budget, teacher pay, and property taxes, absolutely. CMPD protocols, arguably. Possible future transgender bathroom issues with zero evidence of any current problems, no fucking way.

I guess it all depends on if you think LGBT discrimination protections are important or not. If not, then of course you think its grandstanding. If yes, then you see the Council doing its job to protect its citizens.

 

[DistrictDeacon]

How was it brought up to begin with to the City Council last year? Were there complaints about rights not being protected? It does seem like a weird thing that was brought up to begin with if there were no initial problems.

The Charlotte City Council adopted a nondiscrimination in places of public accommodations ordinance in 1968. The ordinance prohibited discrimination in places of public accommodations based on race, color, religion, and national origin. The City later extended non-discrimination protections based on sex.

Amendments approved by the City Council in 2016 expand non-discrimination protections to include the following:

​​​marital status
familial status
sexual orientation
gender identity
gender expression
​These amendments are effective April 1, 2016.

 

[Biff Tannen]

City Council will not consider repeal at tonight's meeting.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/politics-government/article102687482.html

 

[2&2 Slider To Leyritz]

How was it brought up to begin with to the City Council last year? Were there complaints about rights not being protected? It does seem like a weird thing that was brought up to begin with if there were no initial problems.

An LGBT group brought the proposal to the Council in 2014, and the current language was drawn up. What evidence or support was given for it, I have no idea ( all we know is that there was no formal evidence of safety issues). Public backlash was strong, and the then interim mayor (Dan Clodfelter because remember D-Patrick Cannon was thrown in the federal pen for taking bribes) took out the locker room and bathroom provisions, but it was still voted down 6-5. Then Jennifer Roberts was elected mayor, and she reintroduced the original proposed language, which passed 7-4.

 

[Biff Tannen]

So there was a MANDATE ! ? Elections have consequences !

 

[RChildress107]

If the Charlotte ordinance was about political grandstanding then the Charlotte city council sucks at political grandstanding. Without HB2 the Charlotte ordinance gets a story in local newspapers, a brief mention on national news and maybe a local follow up on reaction to the law.

That is unless you think Charlotte passed the ordinance hoping for this exact outcome. I don't give the Charlotte city council that much credit, but if true then they deserve a fucking medal. It sucks that it took a boycott of our state over a national embarrassment of a law to start taking NC back from the crazies, but at this point I'll take it.

 

[2&2 Slider To Leyritz]

They definitely knew/hoped that HB2 would be the reaction, because McCrory told them in advance it would be the reaction if if they passed it.

 

[Deacsfan27]

They definitely knew/hoped that HB2 would be the reaction, because McCrory told them in advance it would be the reaction if if they passed it.

I think it's speculation at best to say that they passed HB2 because they knew it would be struck down/generate THIS type of reaction.

They were confronted with an issue in their city, which they are almost every single day, and were working to come to a resolution. The state stepped in and essentially said "don't do it". That seems to me to be the state overstepping their boundaries with regards to what they should be interfering with for local government (surprisingly a big issue that a lot of Republicans normally have).

 

[RChildress107]

They definitely knew/hoped that HB2 would be the reaction, because McCrory told them in advance it would be the reaction if if they passed it.

So its really McCrory's fault then. You seem to be saying that the ordinance was passed purely for political purposes, namely to challenge the NCGA. If true then they wouldn't have passed the law if Pat hadn't told them that he and the NC GOP would overreact in the most embarrassing and economically harmful way possible.

 

[HailToTheDeacons]

I think it's speculation at best to say that they passed HB2 because they knew it would be struck down/generate THIS type of reaction.

They were confronted with an issue in their city, which they are almost every single day, and were working to come to a resolution. The state stepped in and essentially said "don't do it". That seems to me to be the state overstepping their boundaries with regards to what they should be interfering with for local government (surprisingly a big issue that a lot of Republicans normally have).

North Carolina prohibits local nondiscrimination policies/protections: common sense.

Obama lifts a pen: blatant Federal overreach.

 

[MysteryMen]

From today's NY Post's Phil Mushnick: ACC shows its selective scruples

Odd, how the Atlantic Coast Conference has the wisdom and muscle to tell us what is wrong with the world — spanking the state of North Carolina by eliminating conference championships from the state because of its birth-certificate-corresponding bathroom laws — regarded as discriminatory to transgenders.

Yet, the ACC has neither the wisdom nor muscle — nor, likely, the inclination — to keep the ACC even traditionally clean of academic and financial fraud, not to mention prevent the arrests of its scholarship players for theft, sexual assaults and gun possession.

The high-mindedness of ACC schools on sexual preference issues showed up in 2012 when Duke didn’t renew its on-campus deal with Chick-fil-A in protest of a company ownership’s opposition to same-sex marriage.

A year later, Duke was invited to play Texas A&M in the Chick-fil-A Bowl. The ACC’s take would be $4 million. Hmm. Duke played.

I don't get these arguments at all. Isn't something better than nothing?

 

[2&2 Slider To Leyritz]

I think it's speculation at best to say that they passed HB2 because they knew it would be struck down/generate THIS type of reaction.

They were confronted with an issue in their city, which they are almost every single day, and were working to come to a resolution. The state stepped in and essentially said "don't do it". That seems to me to be the state overstepping their boundaries with regards to what they should be interfering with for local government (surprisingly a big issue that a lot of Republicans normally have).

You are correct that the state overstepped its bounds. But you are wrong that the City Council was confronted with an issue; it was an alleged issue claimed by one small and overly aggressive political group that has never been able to substantiate the alleged issue in any way. Again, part of political office is discretion in determining what issues to address out of the thousands of possibilities. The Charlotte City Council screwed up big time here, and it has cost them dearly. There was a huge amount of stupidity by both governmental levels.

 

[Liquid Karma]

What important issue was the bathroom part of the bill trying to solve?

 

[RChildress107]

You are correct that the state overstepped its bounds. But you are wrong that the City Council was confronted with an issue; it was an alleged issue claimed by one small and overly aggressive political group that has never been able to substantiate the alleged issue in any way. Again, part of political office is discretion in determining what issues to address out of the thousands of possibilities. The Charlotte City Council screwed up big time here, and it has cost them dearly. There was a huge amount of stupidity by both governmental levels.

The gay agenda strikes again.

 

[macktheknife]

Honestly, no. Obviously we aren't going to agree on this, but I don't see how addressing possible future transgender bathroom issues hits the top 1,000 pressing matters to be considered by the Charlotte City Council without political grandstanding being the driving issue. City traffic patterns, sure. Zoning densities, sure. Eduction budget, teacher pay, and property taxes, absolutely. CMPD protocols, arguably. Possible future transgender bathroom issues with zero evidence of any current problems, no fucking way.

We could ask the other 205 cities who have the same ordinance Charlotte passed why they thought it was important. People act like Charlotte was on some cutting edge new legal frontier. Boise Idaho and Myrtle Beach have this fucking law.

 

[lazydeac]

I'm not going to claim I know exactly why they did what they did, but perhaps it was to protect against the possibility of the "undesirable situation" of a business deciding to enforce a policy where patrons had to use the bathroom corresponding to their birth sex. Perhaps they thought it was desirable to head that situation off at the pass. Just because it hadn't been an issue before then, perhaps there was a sense that it would become one in the future, and they wanted to be proactive.

Or they believed that it was their responsibility to protect their LGBT citizens from discrimination.

Do you see how it could have been more than just "grandstanding"?

Just to add on to this - I don't think it probably had much to do with the first part of what you said - certainly I don't think it had anything to do with any actual problem with documented discrimination or assaults of trans individuals in Charlotte bathrooms.

I think this was about continuing to provide and define rights for those that are a part of the LGBT community.

However (as someone has already at least partially pointed out), if you have no respect/understanding/desire/whatever for why any city/state would want to give rights and protections to the LGBT community, then you won't see this as more than grandstanding.

But I do think that we are all going to be living in a world sooner rather than later that's going to be more and more protective of letting people be who they are and more intolerant of those that try to prevent that. And personally I think going into the bathroom that you feel most comfortable in because you identify as that gender is something that everyone deserves.

First it was women, then minorities, then the gay/lesbian community, now transgenders. Spoiler alert: we aren't going to go backwards, just forwards.


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