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Presumably OFFICIAL 2016/17 Premier League

The thing with United right now is that for the money spent, they still have so fucking many average players. If Ibra is old and just another generic striker, Pogba isn't doing anything and Mkhitaryin is unsettled, then they just have a few young talents (Martial, Rashford, Bailly), a world class goalkeeper (DDG) and a whole bunch of dudes that could be on any mid table PL side and nobody would notice.

United's squad isn't good enough to contend for a CL spot if Ibra, Pogba and at least somebody else aren't playing at a very high level. Right now that isn't happening, and the rest of the squad simply isn't good enough.
 
There are some mediocre players on United: Rojo, Jones, Carrick, Lingard, Young, Felliani, Darmian. But do you really, truly think that the following players are "dudes that could be on any mid table PL side and nobody would notice":

Daley Blind
Antonio Valencia
Chris Smalling
Juan Mata
Ander Herrera
Luke Shaw
Morgan Schneiderlin

Because in many of their cases, they were players on midtable clubs that did stand out when United bought them, and in nearly all of them, if they returned, they'd be better than the option currently at their position.

I just don't believe there's a talent debt at United. Maybe compared to City/Chelsea. Mayyyybe compared to Spurs/Pool. But I think you're exaggerating.
 
TownieDeac said:
There are some mediocre players on United: Rojo, Jones, Carrick, Lingard, Young, Felliani, Darmian. But do you really, truly think that the following players are "dudes that could be on any mid table PL side and nobody would notice":

Daley Blind
Antonio Valencia
Chris Smalling
Juan Mata
Ander Herrera
Luke Shaw
Morgan Schneiderlin
Click to expand...

All of those bolded. If there were at Everton or Southampton or West Ham they'd just be some guys who play but nobody notices. Let's take them 1 by 1.

Daly Blind - utility player, good at several positions but great at none. Was a good, but not star, player at Ajax and is part of the worst Netherlands national side in ages. He's the very definition of "a dude"
Antonio Valencia - an aging winger who isn't good at being a winger anymore who has become a league average fullback
Chris Smalling - he's 26 now, he's not that young anymore and he's not gotten any better. Another in a long line of bang average centerbacks that United has pumped out over the last 15 years. He'll be at Sunderland in a few years following the Wes Brown career path (re-read this, that's a huge insult to Wes Brown who was a far better player than Smalling - one of the underrated pieces of SAF's United squads ... we'll call it the Jonny Evans career path instead).
Ander Herrera - had one good season at Bilboa and can't lock down a spot in United's crap midfield. He's the best of these players, but if he played for West Ham for sure nobody would notice him as being out of place.
Luke Shaw - was a great young talent, is crap on a crap cracker right now and may never recover from his injury. It'll be a shame if so, but right now he's a worse than league average fullback
Morgan Scheiderlin - was considered an average midfielder for his entire career (no France callups, playing in a lower league, etc), had one tremendous season in a system that fit him perfectly and is now right back to being very, very average. The outlier for him is the good year he had at Southampton, not the rest of his career (see: Lovren, Dejan)
 
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BTW - the idea that players are good in the face of all on field evidence simply because they were expensive buys and because they wear red shirts is called "Liverpoolitis". United fans and some pundits in the British media have caught a terrible case of it in recent years. And sadly, Liverpool got inoculated and no longer suffers from it.


And here's the thing - those players are all good enough to not hold United back from a CL place or even contending for the title ... IF the stars were playing like stars. They aren't good enough otherwise, and if United is depending on them to carry the team, they will finish at the level of those players (near Everton, Southampton and West Ham, etc). United isn't deep enough with talent to absorb their stars not playing like absolute stars, and right now they aren't.
 
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Anyone know where I can find the 15-16 Las Palmas away jersey?

edit: might not be the 15-16 away, thought it was. maybe a third kit?

Las-Palmas-15-16-Kits%252B%2525285%252529.jpg
 
vadimivich said:
And here's the thing - those players are all good enough to not hold United back from a CL place or even contending for the title ... IF the stars were playing like stars. They aren't good enough otherwise, and if United is depending on them to carry the team, they will finish at the level of those players (near Everton, Southampton and West Ham, etc). United isn't deep enough with talent to absorb their stars not playing like absolute stars, and right now they aren't.
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I think you're exaggerating a little bit on that list of players but I agree with you on this point. United's role players are good enough if the stars play at the level at which they are paid. The problem is that Rooney is no longer an elite player, Pogba looks uncomfortable and frustrated, Mhiktaryan is a non-factor and Ibra appears a slower and less consistent version of his former self.
 
I don't think the numbers back up your sense of "league average," vad.
 
I heard he twisted his ankle or had brain cancer or something.
 
BTW, two guys who started nearly every game for Arsenal last season (Ramsey, Giroud) are due back shortly.
 
vadimivich said:
All of those bolded. If there were at Everton or Southampton or West Ham they'd just be some guys who play but nobody notices. Let's take them 1 by 1.

Daly Blind - utility player, good at several positions but great at none. Was a good, but not star, player at Ajax and is part of the worst Netherlands national side in ages. He's the very definition of "a dude"
Antonio Valencia - an aging winger who isn't good at being a winger anymore who has become a league average fullback
Chris Smalling - he's 26 now, he's not that young anymore and he's not gotten any better. Another in a long line of bang average centerbacks that United has pumped out over the last 15 years. He'll be at Sunderland in a few years following the Wes Brown career path (re-read this, that's a huge insult to Wes Brown who was a far better player than Smalling - one of the underrated pieces of SAF's United squads ... we'll call it the Jonny Evans career path instead).
Ander Herrera - had one good season at Bilboa and can't lock down a spot in United's crap midfield. He's the best of these players, but if he played for West Ham for sure nobody would notice him as being out of place.
Luke Shaw - was a great young talent, is crap on a crap cracker right now and may never recover from his injury. It'll be a shame if so, but right now he's a worse than league average fullback
Morgan Scheiderlin - was considered an average midfielder for his entire career (no France callups, playing in a lower league, etc), had one tremendous season in a system that fit him perfectly and is now right back to being very, very average. The outlier for him is the good year he had at Southampton, not the rest of his career (see: Lovren, Dejan)
Click to expand...

this is just such bad analysis

Blind is the 2nd rated defender and Valencia 6th on Squawka so far this season (Koscielny, Blind, Reid, van Dijk, Davies, Valencia -- Bailly is 12th, Smalling 51st, Shaw 61st). Smalling is rated just below Danny Rose (48th) and ahead of Bertrand, Ivanovic, players at that tier. Shaw seemingly can't get fit. I'm not sure Smalling would find a starting spot at Everton--he's ranked behind all 4 current starters. Valencia is certainly better than Coleman right now, and Blind better than just about anybody on Everton.

Hererra is United's highest rated midfielder at 23rd in the league (ahead of Pogba at 25th btw), and Mata is right behind at 28th. Obviously Schneiderlin hasn't earned a spot this season. Calling Herrera a league average player is dumb, but not even for the reasons you've identified.

Herrera may not slot in at West Ham because they have Payet and Kouyate (each ranked in the top 10 among midfielders). He would certainly start at Everton, who only have Idrissa Gueye in the top 50 midfielder rankings.

"League average" rankings are somewhere around 90th in midfield, 100th in defense, and 45th in attack. It may be true that United's depth isn't up to par, but you're still horribly exaggerating.
 
deacvision7 said:
And Tottenham are filled with world beaters. Got it.
Click to expand...

Nope, not all. As the lack of Spurs star playing is showing (no Kane = no goals).

The reality though, that United fans and the British press won't seem to recognize, is that for all the money United has spent they aren't in any better situation ... they have a couple of stars, and if those stars aren't carrying the team ... they are basically Everton level talent the rest of the squad (and are getting Everton results, just for 5 times the cost).

United has bought so poorly the past 3-4 years it's astonishing. You'd almost have to be criminally negligent to take that money and end up with this squad.
 
TownieDeac said:
this is just such bad analysis

Blind is the 2nd rated defender and Valencia 6th on Squawka so far this season (Koscielny, Blind, Reid, van Dijk, Davies, Valencia -- Bailly is 12th, Smalling 51st, Shaw 61st). Smalling is rated just below Danny Rose (48th) and ahead of Bertrand, Ivanovic, players at that tier. Shaw seemingly can't get fit. I'm not sure Smalling would find a starting spot at Everton--he's ranked behind all 4 current starters. Valencia is certainly better than Coleman right now, and Blind better than just about anybody on Everton.

Hererra is United's highest rated midfielder at 23rd in the league (ahead of Pogba at 25th btw), and Mata is right behind at 28th. Obviously Schneiderlin hasn't earned a spot this season. Calling Herrera a league average player is dumb, but not even for the reasons you've identified.

Herrera may not slot in at West Ham because they have Payet and Kouyate (each ranked in the top 10 among midfielders). He would certainly start at Everton, who only have Idrissa Gueye in the top 50 midfielder rankings.

"League average" rankings are somewhere around 90th in midfield, 100th in defense, and 45th in attack. It may be true that United's depth isn't up to par, but you're still horribly exaggerating.
Click to expand...

giphy.gif
 
It also seems foolish to refer to Everton, comfortably ahead of United in the table, in "teams United players would unremarkably play for."
 
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