Law School is a sham

Jeff Fatt said:

Keep in mind that for many people the idea of a career that they will love is bs. I'm quite certain that for me at least there does not exist a job that I would be excited to get up for and go to work every morning. Some just suck less than others.

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2&2 Slider To Leyritz said:

I don't think its BS if you are running your own business. I deal with a ton of small business owners, and they all seem to enjoy what they do. I have a couple of side projects, and enjoy those immensley more than my job as a lawyer. Hopefully at some point they won't just be side projects.

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I understand and agree to a point. I also deal with a lot of small business owners and definitely would not say they all seem to enjoy it. There are a lot of headaches and stress associated with running a business that people tend to overlook. Anyway, my only point is that for some people (like me) I don't think there is any job that I would love. I've changed careers, worked for huge companies, owned my own business, etc. That is just my experience and doesn't apply to everyone of course. Maybe I just have a bad attitude or work ethic. Who knows.

I've been a lawyer for almost 15 years. Worked several years at an international firm with 500+ lawyers, and did antitrust/banking litigation and other business-v-business disputes. It sucked. Now work at a 5-person firm (all partners; eat what we kill but share the overhead) and do some personal injury plaintiff work, some hourly litigation, and some estate-related stuff. It is infinitely better, and I make 2 or 3 times what I was making at the big firm I left, depending on how some of my contingency-fee cases go.

Law school is a huge sham, and prepares you zero. I currently have a law student who "shadows" me on most of the interesting stuff - depositions, mediations, hearings, trials - she tries to make herself available, she stays up to speed on the cases, and balances that with her school work. She is not paid for this, but she is learning a ton, and there is a decent chance that I hire her as an associate when she graduates. I don't really care about her grades or anything else, because law school is a sham and I know that.

The point is, if you want to be a litigator and cannot go the private sector route because of grades/resume, try to get into a similar situation with someone at a small firm. Show that effort, show you have a personality, show that interest, and you can probably land a decent opportunity out of school, and eventually, you will make good money if you stay the course.

If you are inclined to sit back and waffle about the profession and just try to improve your grades, you are pretty much fucked and you should quit right now and quit incurring debt and go do something different. The best way to turn it around is to be honest with yourself - you won't get a big firm job, you probably won't get a private sector job based on on-campus interviews, and you need to start networking.

deacphan said:

debated going to law school after UG. so glad i didnt.

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My initial plan going into school was law school, hence, the political science major. Even took an LSAT book when I studied abroad junior year.

Took a look at the environment and realized law may not have been my best career choice and haven't looked back. Leveraged the liberal arts background into doing consulting for a year in DC, and have now been a Strategy Analyst for a year and a half. Can't even imagine had I gone to law school (even a T14) and just be finishing up my last year now, not to mention the debt.

Though now I'm coming up on the MBA school question...

AnonymousDeac said:

My initial plan going into school was law school, hence, the political science major. Even took an LSAT book when I studied abroad junior year.

Took a look at the environment and realized law may not have been my best career choice and haven't looked back. Leveraged the liberal arts background into doing consulting for a year in DC, and have now been a Strategy Analyst for a year and a half. Can't even imagine had I gone to law school (even a T14) and just be finishing up my last year now, not to mention the debt.

Though now I'm coming up on the MBA school question...

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Consulting sounds like a great gig. Any idea of people with JD's transition into it at all?

"Leveraged the liberal arts background into doing consulting"

I feel like there's some helpful information there.

I've always wondered about "consulting" right out of school ... consulting for what? How does one be a consultant about something if they have never done that thing or been specifically educted in that thing? Who would pay to be consulted by someone with less experience and knowledge than they likely have themselves? Sounds like the ultimate scam.

2&2's post represents my questions. I'm curious what somebody knows from getting a liberal arts degree at Wake that would make him a valuable consultant in DC. I'm guessing it comes from Nonny's work experience.

PhDeac said:

"Leveraged the liberal arts background into doing consulting"

I feel like there's some helpful information there.

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Ha indeed. Just curious if he had completed a JD, if consulting would still be an option.

2&2 Slider To Leyritz said:

I've always wondered about "consulting" right out of school ... consulting for what? How does one be a consultant about something if they have never done that thing or been specifically educted in that thing? Who would pay to be consulted by someone with less experience and knowledge than they likely have themselves? Sounds like the ultimate scam.

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Got a friend that is in DC consulting right after graduating from UNC UG and Wake MBA. He claims to have no clue what hes doing and makes great money.

2&2 Slider To Leyritz said:

I've always wondered about "consulting" right out of school ... consulting for what? How does one be a consultant about something if they have never done that thing or been specifically educted in that thing? Who would pay to be consulted by someone with less experience and knowledge than they likely have themselves? Sounds like the ultimate scam.

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you're not paying the kid fresh out of school, you're paying for the firm's knowledge and the junior people are probably just better than whatever you have in-house to do bitch work

Do all those Wake kids that work at CEB tell people they consult straight out of college? I would think that might be a likely scenario.

FWIW, I actually love practicing law. I started out in a district attorney's office and tried a lot of cases. I transitioned 25 years ago from that to hanging out a shingle. I practiced "threshhold law". Whatever walked across the threshhold I would take, including domestic and child custody. In the past 10 years I have been able to limit my practice to criminal defense, which is my passion. It has been a tremendously rewarding career, intellectually and financially, as well as just plain fun! I turn 60 this year, with no thoughts of quitting. I am one who actually gets up looking forward to work.

buckets said:

you're not paying the kid fresh out of school, you're paying for the firm's knowledge and the junior people are probably just better than whatever you have in-house to do bitch work

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Ah. I'll make the necessary correction below.

AnonymousDeac said:

My initial plan going into school was law school, hence, the political science major. Even took an LSAT book when I studied abroad junior year.

Took a look at the environment and realized law may not have been my best career choice and haven't looked back. Leveraged the liberal arts background into doing bitch work for a year in DC, and have now been a Bitch Work Specialist for a year and a half. Can't even imagine had I gone to law school (even a T14) and just be finishing up my last year now, not to mention the debt.

Though now I'm coming up on the MBA school question...

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Is B-school a sham?

You guys realize that like half the kids in the 5 year calloway accountancy program go right into big 4 accounting/consulting right out of school right?

When large consulting firms do large jobs for large companies they need an army of young, unattached, mobile bitches that they fly to the client and audit the company's records, from inventory to financial statements, everything. These firms literally have sections called 'Audit' full of these kids. The 22 yo plebs fly in Monday morning, perform the rote data collection work and synthesize reports until Friday afternoon, fly home, rinse and repeat. The higher ups take the reports and then make recommendations. I didn't know you could go to Wake without knowing like 20 people that take this route immediately post college.

Audit isn't really a consulting function. Every public company is legally required to get their financial statements audited by a reputable third party.

I only mention this difference between usually consultants are hired and at least someone wants you around, auditors are an expensive requirement that no one really likes.

TheTwinAndreBen said:

You guys realize that like half the kids in the 5 year calloway accountancy program go right into big 4 accounting/consulting right out of school right?

When large consulting firms do large jobs for large companies they need an army of young, unattached, mobile bitches that they fly to the client and audit the company's records, from inventory to financial statements, everything. These firms literally have sections called 'Audit' full of these kids. The 22 yo plebs fly in Monday morning, perform the rote data collection work and synthesize reports until Friday afternoon, fly home, rinse and repeat. The higher ups take the reports and then make recommendations. I didn't know you could go to Wake without knowing like 20 people that take this route immediately post college.

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Yeah, I get what an auditor with an accounting background does. What we're talking about here is someone with a liberal arts background who is paid to "consult" a company about something. What is that something? The works of Ralph Waldo Emerson?

buckets said:

Audit isn't really a consulting function. Every public company is legally required to get their financial statements audited by a reputable third party.

I only mention this difference between usually consultants are hired and at least someone wants you around, auditors are an expensive requirement that no one really likes.

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Right but not all audit work is just public traded company accounting compliance. Some of it is due diligence for M&A or other restructures. I guess you could argue that isn't really pure consulting either, but it still requires grunt work by 23 year olds working for consulting firms.

Medical consulting is another field that requires kids to pore over tons and tons of charts and insurance billing statements for holes and missteps. They compile their reports to 35 and 40 year old project managers who make actual consulting recs to the clients.

TheTwinAndreBen said:

Right but not all audit work is just public traded company accounting compliance. Some of it is due diligence for M&A or other restructures. I guess you could argue that isn't really pure consulting either, but it still requires grunt work by 23 year olds working for consulting firms.

Medical consulting is another field that requires kids to pore over tons and tons of charts and insurance billing statements for holes and missteps. They compile their reports to 35 and 40 year old project managers who make actual consulting recs to the clients.

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But they're all different groups. If you're in the audit practice, then all you do is audit. Sometimes private companies that need an audit for whatever reason, but you never really "consult" or do the other services you mentioned.

But to your point... even auditors will recommend bullshit things that financial controls and advise on accounting policies.

I worked for an IT Strategy consulting firm with government clients. My first site we were there to do enterprise architecture stuff. I knew absolutely nothing about that but that didn't matter as my job was more of a project coordinator role. I did the bitch work such as maintaining quality assurance with our contract, data entry, research, maturity models, etc. Second site I had similar roles such as maintaining the team's Project Schedule, assisting clients with using our company's project management tool and eventually managing the intake of new projects. The liberal arts reference was that that the strengths that carried over to the job were research skills, writing skills, analytic thinking, etc.

Or just forego law school, the bar, et al and just start practicing like this guy on right